Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By G-JWTP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1863128
mcdonaldn507 wrote:I daresay you would have seen the NOTAMs but Brize is currently Basic Service only on LARS and Zone due to comms issues.

Hope this isn’t too inconvenient and please spread the word if you are local to Brize.

Any questions please feel free to email mcdonaldn507@gmail.com


Err,

And another of my old chestnuts.

How does the radar control service in the CTR work then?

G-JWTP
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1863136
mcdonaldn507 wrote:I daresay you would have seen the NOTAMs but Brize is currently Basic Service only on LARS and Zone due to comms issues.

Hope this isn’t too inconvenient and please spread the word if you are local to Brize.

Any questions please feel free to email mcdonaldn507@gmail.com


There's a lot of it about. Southampton won't even give you a Basic Service, "squawk 7011 if you want, but make no further transmissions unless you wish to transit controlled airspace".

G
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By rikur_
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#1863138
I don't know what the issue at Brize is, but our local unit is unable to offer Traffic/Deconfliction service outside controlled airspace without primary radar - so a primary radar fault results in basic service only being available. I *guess* a radar control service in controlled airspace is still allowed because it is a known traffic environment??
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By 2Donkeys
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#1863139
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
There's a lot of it about. Southampton won't even give you a Basic Service, "squawk 7011 if you want, but make no further transmissions unless you wish to transit controlled airspace".

G


In fairness, Southampton is not a LARS provider so don’t really claim to be offering a service to traffic OCAS. Bristol are the same.

Luckily, there are others such as Luton and Essex that aren’t LARS providers either, but have adopted a more pragmatic approach in these low-traffic times.
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By TheFarmer
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#1863155
In fairness to Brize, whilst they are offering you a Basic service, they normally go above and beyond that, and are the most accommodating bunch of people on 119.00 that I have ever dealt with, for many years.

In 30 years of flying, I’ve never been refused a zone transit by them, and they cannot be more helpful.

To proactively come on here is their style, and as far as I’m concerned, they’re still the standard that others should aspire to.
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By James Chan
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#1863161
How does the radar control service in the CTR work then?


If the radar is out of service then a Procedural Control Service will be used inside the CTR.

A Basic Service can only be given outside the zone, although I’m not sure if the comms had a problem why a BS can even be given while a TS/DS cannot.

One should think if the comms was bad enough to not be able to obtain traffic information or advisory avoidance vectors, that it would also be bad enough to not be able to pass one’s message and obtain a squawk and QNH.
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By Genghis the Engineer
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#1863177
SteveX wrote:Can the thread be renamed 'Brize no service remains no service'. My point being nothing to do with Brize, but the utter futility of this thing called 'basic' not being a service at all. Should be done under the trades description act.


If a controller gives me a QNH, a known frequency to talk to if I have an emergency, and then leaves me alone - that suits me very well. I like a basic service a lot of the time.

My biggest, probably only objection to Basic Service is the UK exceptionalism of doing things differently to the rest of the world. There are things I can escalate to, after all, I just don't have to.

G
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1863178
James Chan wrote:
How does the radar control service in the CTR work then?


If the radar is out of service then a Procedural Control Service will be used inside the CTR.

A Basic Service can only be given outside the zone, although I’m not sure if the comms had a problem why a BS can even be given while a TS/DS cannot.

One should think if the comms was bad enough to not be able to obtain traffic information or advisory avoidance vectors, that it would also be bad enough to not be able to pass one’s message and obtain a squawk and QNH.


Actually, a Procedural Service can only be given outside of CAS, it would be an Approach Service (as opposed to an Approach Radar service) inside the Zone, if Radar was not available.

Slightly confusingly, the call sign at a civil unit may give you a clue in that “Seaton Radar” would indicate that a radar based service was available and “Seaton Approach” would indicate a non-radar service (approach control service or procedural service) Only the military use the call sign “Zone” in the U.K. which maybe serviced by either Radar or not!
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1863196
Actually, a Procedural Service can only be given outside of CAS, it would be an Approach Service (as opposed to an Approach Radar service) inside the Zone, if Radar was not available.


I almost forgot about PS outside CAS as I’m rarely IFR at the same time the radar is unavailable.

Similarly I hadn’t realised PCS inside CAS had been renamed.
By mcdonaldn507
#1863376
Basic Service is a service outside of controlled airspace. As is Traffic Service and Deconfliction Service.

The service inside controlled airspace is unaffected as far as comms issues allow. Radar Control and Zone transits will be provided.

This is nothing to do with manning purely comms issues.
By mcdonaldn507
#1863378
James Chan wrote:
How does the radar control service in the CTR work then?


If the radar is out of service then a Procedural Control Service will be used inside the CTR.

A Basic Service can only be given outside the zone, although I’m not sure if the comms had a problem why a BS can even be given while a TS/DS cannot.

One should think if the comms was bad enough to not be able to obtain traffic information or advisory avoidance vectors, that it would also be bad enough to not be able to pass one’s message and obtain a squawk and QNH.


The issue is when we transmit and is periodic not constant.

When aircraft call in good time as 99% do we are able to provide the zone transit with no issues. The CTR is a known traffic environment so we can provide early information on other traffic. We won’t have anything ‘popping up.’

By saying Basic Service only we hope the pilot won’t rely on us giving traffic information or deconfliction advice to them as should the comms fail as we need to do so then clearly we would not be able to give that.
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By mcdonaldn507
#1863379
rikur_ wrote:I don't know what the issue at Brize is, but our local unit is unable to offer Traffic/Deconfliction service outside controlled airspace without primary radar - so a primary radar fault results in basic service only being available. I *guess* a radar control service in controlled airspace is still allowed because it is a known traffic environment??


I would suggest that this is because without primary radar a significant amount of gliders will not be seen. They can’t call something they can’t see so by saying basic service only they are hoping it means the pilot will rely solely on lookout rather than receiving TI or DA on conflicting aircraft.
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By mcdonaldn507
#1863380
TheFarmer wrote:In fairness to Brize, whilst they are offering you a Basic service, they normally go above and beyond that, and are the most accommodating bunch of people on 119.00 that I have ever dealt with, for many years.

In 30 years of flying, I’ve never been refused a zone transit by them, and they cannot be more helpful.

To proactively come on here is their style, and as far as I’m concerned, they’re still the standard that others should aspire to.


Very nice of you to say so. Thank you.
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