Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862402
Indulging in a non-aviation hobby today, I was working my allotment, which is in the corner of Aylesbury Vale, pretty much under standard entry/exist routes for Booker and Denham. There's class A above me at 2500ft, but cloudbase today has been somewhat lower than that, and terrain is around 500ft.

So between 500ft AGL, and the effective ceiling is probably 1500ft.

Today I watched multiple light GA aircraft, all around the same altitude, manoeuvring in the same space. At one point I saw a B206, PA28 and C152, in-sight at the same time, all manoeuvring, and all clearly changing flightpaths to avoid each other. The PA28 had what would be justifiably reported (although I'm sure they won't, and nor would I) airproxes with BOTH the other aircraft in the space of probably three minutes.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the local schools don't routinely fit any kind of electronic collision avoidance devices (by which I mean PAW or SE, I'm sure they've all got transponders), despite the double-double-fatal not far away at Waddesden a few years ago.

It's bandit country out there, for goodness sake put A LOT of effort into your lookout, and don't fly without electronic collision avoidance. At £300 for a PAW unit, there's absolutely no reason not to - but I'd put good money on 2/3rds of the aeroplanes I've seen today not having anything.

Frankly, I DO NOT want to have to interrupt my gardening to run to a fatal accident site in my village, and at one point today I was convinced I was about to.

G
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By mpk
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862408
Hiya. All 16ish of the Denham school aircraft have PAW and panel mounted ipads, really well equipped club aircraft. Probably all using Farnborough N also.
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By PA28
#1862411
All of our club aeroplanes have ADSB out transponders and we use PAW to help keep track of each other. It is a great aid to the Mk1 eyeball but not a replacement.
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By MattL
#1862424
Sounds like a normal day for schools operating in their local training area. Manoeuvring to avoid other aircraft is normal business and it’s very difficult to judge actual separation from the ground. I’ve done some tests in that area and EC usage locally seems pretty ok from what I’ve found.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862445
mpk wrote:Hiya. All 16ish of the Denham school aircraft have PAW and panel mounted ipads, really well equipped club aircraft. Probably all using Farnborough N also.


I am really glad to hear that. Well done to whoever made that decision.

I wasn't looking hard at markings and wasn't looking at FR24, so have no reason to believe that the C152 I saw (probably) within about 100m of a PA28 was from any particular operator. But that was what I was seriously worried at one point was going to be a collision.

G
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862447
MattL wrote:Sounds like a normal day for schools operating in their local training area. Manoeuvring to avoid other aircraft is normal business and it’s very difficult to judge actual separation from the ground. I’ve done some tests in that area and EC usage locally seems pretty ok from what I’ve found.


When I saw the same two aircraft manoeuvring at similar heights, for several minutes over the same village I was seriously wondering if they were filming each other before they departed, eventually, in different directions.

G
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862486
This is also another reason why Class A airspace should have been reclassified.

With traffic into the majors only a fraction of what it usually is, there is no reason to be keeping VFR aircraft "permanently" squashed low. Even with the weather some could have climbed over the top if a clearance were allowed.

All this just increases noise, risk of collisions, and sometimes fuel burn too.
By A4 Pacific
#1862512
That all sounds very dangerous.

If the Mk 1 eyeball is now deemed totally inadequate in such busy airspace, surely it’s now time to agree a common (and effective) format for collision avoidance, and then mandate it’s use (and serviceability) to protect all users of that airspace, and those living below it.

Which of our GA representative organisations are advocating mandating a fully approved system?
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By ADIRU777
#1862578
When I was learning to fly at Hamble in 1971, we used the eastern part of the Isle of Wight as a local flying area. I can vividly remember reporting to Hamble Approach that I was proceeding to the IoW and getting the reply "Roger, you're number 17 over the Island" I could only see one other! No EC in those days so we had to try and use our (admittedly young) eyes all of the time. There was, however, one non fatal mid-air during my time...
Last edited by ADIRU777 on Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Human Factor
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862581
I remember doing PFLs into a particular field not far from Cranfield many years ago. It was a regular haunt. So much so, I remember on a particularly calm day, one of my course mates was doing PFLs into the same field from the opposite direction and we did quite a creditable opposition pass at Xft.
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By Human Factor
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862608
ADIRU777 wrote:There was, however, one non fatal mid-air during my time...


Was this the one which resulted in eyebrow windows on the ex-Hamble Cherokees?
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862645
James Chan wrote:This is also another reason why Class A airspace should have been reclassified.

With traffic into the majors only a fraction of what it usually is, there is no reason to be keeping VFR aircraft "permanently" squashed low. Even with the weather some could have climbed over the top if a clearance were allowed.

All this just increases noise, risk of collisions, and sometimes fuel burn too.


Absolutely, the USA manages very well with no class A below FL180, nobody can fly in class B, C, or D without a clearance anyhow - so there is absolutely no safety grounds for making huge amounts of low level airspace IFR only.

(Although on the occasion I am reporting, with a low overcast, it wouldn't actually have helped very much in my opinion. The problem is multiple aircraft manoeuvring at similar levels, over an obvious choke point.)

G
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862651
In Canada this is a common debate.
Vancouver’s airspace is very congested with a lot of controlled airspace. All airports are in Class C zones except Chilliwack and east, and Delta Airpark.

The main training areas are Glen Valley, Pitt Lake, and Sumas.
Glen Valley is sometimes extremely busy with a concentration of training aircraft and there’s one particular field often called “the international” used for PFLs.

I operated Katanas which have excellent visibility, but are often difficult to spot themselves.
The greatest fear for me is to be in this area in a Cessna, the visibility from a Cessna is not adequate for good visual traffic avoidance. If teaching gentle and medium turns you need clear air for a Cessna!
Lift a wing of course but being in a turn for two minutes removes the sight of where you are going for a worrying time.

I note habits here... Fast aeroplanes on straight in approaches to uncontrolled aerodromes, or entering the traffic area at high speed.
Fly at the speed to see, or the altitude to be above the slow aeroplanes.
Back in the 1980’s I had a ride with a newly minted PPL. He had checked out in the Twin Com as soon as he could.
‘Took off from Biggin, left turn out and heading towards Croydon and the LHR zone at 160 mph IAS... I slowed him down, 110 mph, a stage of flap to see. It was murky, poor vis, slow down and set up to see, too easy to run into a Cessna 150...
Maybe I’m too cautious, but I don’t rely entirely on EC.

We can not know how many near misses we have had!

Poor vis on the motorway we slow down, hopefully to avoid running into the pile up ahead by those who sped past you... In the air we need to behave likewise when we are uncontrolled.
What’s the speed limit below 10,000 feet? And why?
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1862655
Maybe I’m too cautious, but I don’t rely entirely on EC.


Nor should anybody in VMC, but given that EC now exists, I see no excuses for not making full use of it.

G
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