Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1861829
rdfb wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:But those that passed NPPL(M) did so with reduced hours and reduced exams, a rating based on slower, shorter range aircraft. So should 600kg aircraft require an additional rating?


Why is the existing rating insufficient? The mere existence of other ratings isn't enough to conclude that this rating is insufficient, since it might be the case that the other ratings have excessive requirements. So if the existing rating is insufficient, it must surely be insufficient on its own terms. So why is it insufficient?


I did my PPL(M) when microlights were at 390kg, was part of the negotiating team that got the UK co-incident with the European 450kg definition, and somewhere along the way got a JAR PPL(SEP) - for which basically the instructor virtually never had to touch the controls.

450kg to 600kg is no great leap in itself, it allows some of the heavier present microlights to be more legal, and it allows some simpler SEP aeroplanes to be classed more sensibly as microlights.

Basically, I think that the microlight syllabus is quite adequate, with the provisos that if you trained on a Thruster you need some more training to fly a Piper Cub or EV97 Eurostar, and vice-versa - but if you trained on a C150 you need more training to fly a Piper Arrow too.

I am a little more concerned about the planned increase in maximum stalling speed from 35kts to 45kt, but as a 3-axis microlight pilot used to flying a Shadow over 20 years ago, a C152 offered no particular challenges in that regard, nor should it now.

The question is more why do we continue to tolerate some of the things, particularly TK, in the EASA-legacy PPL syllabus? The UK microlight syllabus TK is, after all, still somewhat longer than the perfectly good FAA PPL TK.

G
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1861842
Curious where you stand if you have flown the non microlight version of some of these machines, presumably you will have grandfather rights but will those then allow you to fly the microlight versions and if you have instructed on the heavier versions will you then be able to do so on the lighter versions without the differences sign off?
#1861847
@Sooty25
But those that passed NPPL(M) did so with reduced hours and reduced exams, a rating based on slower, shorter range aircraft. So should 600kg aircraft require an additional rating?


In my opinion, no. I believe differences training will be sufficient, rather like the other way round when one wishes to fly a microlight Eurofox on a full fat PPL.

We're really not jumping from a lawnmower powered collection of nuts and bolts to an F35. We're talking about 150kgs. That makes a great deal of difference to the range of a microlight but the difference in handling is/will be negligible. Definitely no need to build an unnecessary mountain from a barely perceptible molehill.
#1861848
foxmoth wrote:Curious where you stand if you have flown the non microlight version of some of these machines, presumably you will have grandfather rights but will those then allow you to fly the microlight versions and if you have instructed on the heavier versions will you then be able to do so on the lighter versions without the differences sign off?


Nothing will change in that regard. If you need differences sign off to fly micros then you still will. The change in legislation is limited to the definition of what aeroplanes are microlights. As I understand it, anyway.
#1861852
with the amount of overlap between Microlight and SSEA types, and the potential need for differences training, would it not make sense to do away with NPPL (M) and (SSEA) all together and just have one common licence?

It would seem daft to have a microlight licence that allows you to fly a Shark or a Eurofox 915i, but heaven forbid you climb in a C150 or J-3
PaulSS, bogopper liked this
#1861867
I always found the notion of differences training curious on the grounds of the aircraft mass. I had a Kitfox 3 that handled identically to a Kitfox 3 operating to microlight rules which saw a difference of all up mass of just 26kgs - both of which could be operated at microlight masses depending on fuel and human masses. But on my SEP I can fly a Group A Taylor Titch with a MAUM of 340kgs and an AN-2 with a MAUM of 5,440kgs. It’s just nonsense.

Differences training needs a rule running over itself, in my opinion. The other one that is bonkers is the glass cockpit differences training which doesn’t apply to the myriad of electronic flight bag apps like ForeFlight and SkyDemon - both of which have more features than some of the basic EFIS requiring that difference training. Again, nonsense.

Bottom line from me for 600kgs is that no difference training should be required, but like learning any new GA aeroplane type, having some coaching from a suitable individual is always worth it.

Wobbly props, retracts and tailwheels should be the main requirements for mandated difference training courses for the main GA types.
PaulSS, Nick liked this
#1861905
But on my SEP I can fly a Group A Taylor Titch with a MAUM of 340kgs and an AN-2 with a MAUM of 5,440kgs. It’s just nonsense.


When all this were fields and before they changed it from SEA to SEP, many of us would ‘revalidate’ our PPLs using Hawk hours :)

I did much prefer the single licence with single and/or multi written on it. So much simpler than we have now and incredibly easy to understand how to keep valid.

I am looking forward to the 600kg rule being made law and being able to carry more fuel :thumleft:
Nick, gaznav liked this
#1861906
PaulSS wrote:I am looking forward to the 600kg rule being made law and being able to carry more fuel :thumleft:

Indulge my ignorance, if you would. Is my understanding that the 600kg will only apply to new builds mistaken? Will it now be retrospective? :thumright:
#1861919
Miscellaneous wrote:
PaulSS wrote:I am looking forward to the 600kg rule being made law and being able to carry more fuel :thumleft:

Indulge my ignorance, if you would. Is my understanding that the 600kg will only apply to new builds mistaken? Will it now be retrospective? :thumright:


Yes that is as I understand it! There will not be automatic upgrades to 600kg on anything currently flying in the UK.
Whatever weight your MAUW is under the current system will stay exactly the same.
600kg will only apply to new factory built microlights or amateur built micro's Permitted post legislation.
Miscellaneous liked this