Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1861794
Writing to MPs does not work.
As I said in an earlier post ,
writing to my MP extracted a letter from the DfT saying they had asked the CAA and the CAA said they had to publish the names and addresses.

My MP just acted as a conduit for the standard reply from the CAA, he didn't do any more.
Last edited by Bald Sparrow on Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1861918
A le Ron wrote:The General Medical Council keeps a public register. But they do not publish my address, domestic or professional, or any other details.


This is the point isn’t it? There are many public bodies who hold sensitive information about us yet the CAA seems to be the only one that publishes this openly on the internet and I just cannot understand why it is a special case.

The closest analogy is the electoral roll which contains our name address and age. The council is obliged by law to maintain the electoral roll and to make it available to anybody who wishes to view it. However in order to view it you must attend at the council offices and view the physical record. You don’t need any particular reason so is an exact match for the way CAA determines our information is to be held and made viewable.

The electoral register is even made available as a commercial document to anyone who wishes to purchase a copy. The CAA does the same with our records.

The crucial difference is that you have the right to withhold your details from the commercial version of the electoral register. You have no automatic right to do so with Ginfo.

I fail to see why the CAA register should be treated any differently to the electoral register. It would be a money spinner for the CAA as they could charge £150 for an appointment to view it…
JodelDavo, Nick liked this
#1861923
Rjk983 wrote:This is the point isn’t it? There are many public bodies who hold sensitive information about us yet the CAA seems to be the only one that publishes this openly on the internet and I just cannot understand why it is a special case.

Publishes it and now directing people to that information. :roll:

As a layman I would argue that rather than complying with legislation, the CAA are failing in their requirement under the GDPR to protect data they hold. I cannot see how there can be any justification. :naughty:
TheFarmer, A le Ron, JodelDavo and 2 others liked this
#1862003
Going back a few steps. As an airfield operator, and dealing with my fare share of noise complaints I make the following point.

I operate under a planning agreement and in that agreement we have noise abatement areas. In order to comply with that, then yes it is my duty to deal with or investigate noise complaints associated with those areas. I don’t need GINFO to do this, they have PPR’d so I usually have some method by which to get in touch.

But when does my “duty” end? I’ve had complaints from people who live in Newcastle before. What exactly do they expect me to do about an aircraft several hundred miles away?

Bringing it back more locally, we get complaints about aerobatic flights. Again, they are avoiding the noise abatement areas, staying away from built up areas (doing all the things we’ve asked them to do). But now you’ve got some guy who lives in the middle of nowhere who claims his house is being targeted, or they are below the tree line (from his perspective). Is it my “duty” to do something about it? I don’t own the aircraft, or the club or school which operates it. Why is it my problem.

Draw an analogy. Say I was running Silverstone. I have a track day and lots of people show up with cars with noisy exhausts. It might be reasonable for me to put up signs asking people to drive responsibly when leaving the circuit. Is it reasonable for me to have to investigate claims of noisy cars which may have left my circuit and stopped at a local Tesco car park 10 miles away?

With regards to the data protection. A Judicial Review of the policy to publish this would be the most appropriate course of action having had lots of dismissive responses. All you’re asking is for the name and address to be removed. All the other info could remain. Perhaps AOPA or another group could put together an application for Judicial Review?
Flyin'Dutch', Nick liked this
#1862007
ChrisGazzard wrote:
....

With regards to the data protection. A Judicial Review of the policy to publish this would be the most appropriate course of action having had lots of dismissive responses. All you’re asking is for the name and address to be removed. All the other info could remain. Perhaps AOPA or another group could put together an application for Judicial Review?


You need very deep pockets to bring a JR, and even deeper pockets if you lose and have to pay the other side's costs. And you have to show that you have first tried any other avenue of appeal.

I think that AOPA or other organisation, if they were to decide to become involved, would be better off obtaining definitive legal advice (in particular about data protection and whether the data is being processed in accordance with the data protection principles) and then open discussions with the CAA.

I am a little surprised that the Information Commissioner wasn't interested.

Regards

Mike
Flyin'Dutch', MikeB liked this
#1862117
The CAA seem to think that they have an obligation to maintain a public register and that this obligation is created by legislation. I don't see that mentioned here, but I'm sure I've read it somewhere on some forum that this is what the CAA responded with when complained to.

If this is the case, them I'm pretty sure the GDPR doesn't apply, and thus this matter has nothing to do with the Information Commissioner's Office - since the GDPR specifically excludes compliance with legal obligations. You need to either convince the CAA (whether legally or otherwise) that the legislation doesn't mean what they think it means, or convince the ICO that the CAA's position is incorrect and so they need to step in, or have the legislation changed accordingly.

My point is that it's not straightforwardly a GDPR issue; that's all.
#1862147
@rdfb I'd argue maintaining a public register does not necessitate putting it online with all the information it contains.

We know how creative the CAA can be with their interpretations. I'd argue a paper file in a filing cabinet that can be examined by anyone visiting, or even via written request, meets the criteria of keeping a public record. My gut tells me the motivation to have it online is to minimise work for the CAA and NOTHING else. :wink:

I cannot see how making such personal information public does not breach GDPR. Unless, of course, you interpret the rules to suit and not as intended. :D
Flyin'Dutch', Rjk983 liked this
#1862168
Miscellaneous wrote: I'd argue a paper file in a filing cabinet that can be examined by anyone visiting



"But the ownership details are available”
“Available? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the G-INFO department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the register didn’t you?”
“Yes I did. It was in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.”

Rob P
nallen, T67M, Miscellaneous and 1 others liked this
#1862170
The CAA's view on that (via a letter to ls8pilot, from a previous thread):

I am writing in respect of your enquiry relating to ‘G-INFO’ which, as you know, is the UK Register of Civil Aircraft.

The CAA is responsible for maintaining the UK Register of Civil Aircraft in accordance with the Air Navigation Order 2016 (ANO). The ANO details what information must be held against each aircraft and this includes the name and address of the registered owner of the aircraft. The CAA is also required by the Civil Aviation Authority Regulations 1991 to make the UK Register available for inspection by any person.

The CAA does not insist that you use your residential address. If you wish to supply an alternate address please advise the CAA by following the process at https://www.caa.co.uk/Aircraft-register ... t-details/, and there is no charge for the re-issue of a Certificate of Registration for an address change.

Should you have further concerns you can contact the Information Commissioner at:-

Information Commissioner’s Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire SK9 5AF
http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints.aspx

However, you should be aware that this matter was raised with the ICO previously and they agreed with the CAA's position.

(My bold.)
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