Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Red
#1859622
I still don't 'get' the problem re: PPR, OK its great to be able to just drop in somewhere but that's only safe if it has an always manned ground station, even then its no biggie to make a phone call is it?
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By rdfb
#1859664
malcolmfrost wrote:
rdfb wrote:
Lefty wrote:Let’s be honest, how hard is it to make a 1 minute call?


How hard is it to answer the phone? Difficult for multiple aerodromes, in my experience. The other day I had to try about ten times over about 45 minutes before I got an answer. I very nearly gave up, and on that day I couldn't go somewhere else because my mission involved getting somewhere near that aerodrome. Another time the (different) aerodrome's phone line had failed, and it took them hours to update their website with an alternative arrangement.


Have a thought for the poor old AGCS operator who is probably on their own, selling ice creams, sorting out the latest fuel pump issue etc. all whilst answering aircraft on the radio!! Read the flight guides, visit the website and brief properly. How hard is it!! :D


I'd be happy to leave the poor old AGCS operator alone, and I already check the AIP entry (when available) and read the website. I was only calling because the aerodrome operator required me to do so!
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By matthew_w100
#1859760
Red wrote:I still don't 'get' the problem re: PPR, OK its great to be able to just drop in somewhere but that's only safe if it has an always manned ground station, even then its no biggie to make a phone call is it?


Well sometimes I don't know where I'm going when I take off. And it might be nice to drop in somewhere on a whim. I don't have to call ahead when I'm in France, which is good as I can't speak telephone French. Why should a Frenchman get into trouble if he comes here? The rest of the world is used to asking for permission to land over the radio - why do we have to do something different?

Again - caveated to say ONLY for places with a manned ground station. And actually I prefer to phone ahead - the French way makes me uneasy (but probably because I'm not used to it). But I shouldn't have to.
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By Rob P
#1859764
Red wrote:... its great to be able to just drop in somewhere but that's only safe if it has an always manned ground station


What utter bollox. What is 'unsafe' about lunchtime when the FISO takes a break and calls are made to "traffic"?

Where is the record of all the crashes and fatalities at Calais on the FISOs several days off per week, for instance?

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1859765
Some places requre PPR first time you fly in, then they are happy for all future visits. Seems a sensible pattern unless there are lots of variables (such as soft ground).
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1859767
I always phone ahead wherever I'm going, commercial or not, PPR required or not.
I often need a few favours from ATC so a voice helps.

Peter
By Ibra
#1859775
I am impressed by people who claim they have always called on the phone to check things, I am not sure how this works in 90% of places in France or USA? unless you want handling services or fuel trucks there is usually no one else to call, I have visted few airports where I had an urge to ask interesting questions and get valuable advices but it was struggling to find someone well placed to give some reassurance and provide some "phone PPR therapy" :lol:

Going to Nantes for a week, 50kts was forcasted middle of trip while aircraft is parked, I tried to call someone or email to check if they have tie-downs in GA terminal parking? but really no luck, I still went there not talking to anyone, just FPL and hope for the best, after taxi and park, Ground ATC laughed when I asked if they know some spots with tie-down, asked if I can park on grass, they said better check with Bizjet handlers, called Bizjet handlers they said they don't know, and asked to check with aeroclub who managed to find a spot for us in the hangar

Same in Toulouse Blagnac, it was not clear how you get in/out? does one need a permission? no one was available to help and give advice? turns out that just call 15nm away, fly & park works pretty well

These airports should become "strict PPR" with phone number published somewhere, the procedures are complex and someone will surely get lost or crash without guidance :lol:

I don't ever recalled using phone calls in the US, it would be interesting to know if people ever called any of the airports before departing? some examples would be helpful (except KOSH for arrival slots or pancake group orders in Arcadia)
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1859787
I still don't 'get' the problem re: PPR


When you take your car out for a (random) drive, you don’t phone your motorway service station or NCP car park, or the local council to ask if you can park in one of their bays. You just show up - and if there’s a space you park there and pay now or at the end if needed.

Is there the occasional idiot who damages parts of the car park and doesn’t fess up? Of course - and car parks sometimes use CCTV and number plate recognition to catch such culprits. People urinate and throw up in stairwells and drop litter and all sorts. But the car park owner/operator continues to run it nonetheless without having to give detailed repeated briefings over the telephone.

The ability to randomly land must apply to flying to non-private farm strips or else nobody will be able to go on a random trip anymore, or take an unplanned toilet break, or rest stop from feeling tired or hungry.

By all means phone ahead if you need further information or some assurance of parking and fuel or special handling for a large group fly out. By all means book and pre-pay over the telephone or web if there are planning restrictions on movements.

But there’s no need to turn all this into some prescribed you-must-telephone-ahead ritual - or the person answering that phone would tire out quickly speaking the same thing on a stuck loop. And some will “reserve” free bookings all over the place as a backup plan without intention of landing. And then you complain when nobody is answering because he’s gone on his toilet break.
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By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1859796
skydriller wrote:Presumably........



You sure you want to go that way? :wink:

It's a private strip which at every mention is marked 'PPR required'. Can't make it any clearer than that.
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By rdfb
#1859804
Rob P wrote:
Red wrote:... its great to be able to just drop in somewhere but that's only safe if it has an always manned ground station


What utter bollox. What is 'unsafe' about lunchtime when the FISO takes a break and calls are made to "traffic"?


I think that perhaps we're all in violent agreement about the "of course call ahead when it's a private strip", but are struggling to define what we mean precisely in words.

How about: "if it's not generally open to the public, then we all agree that PPR is a reasonable requirement"? And conversely, for those of us objecting to the "PPR system", we are specifically complaining about aerodromes generally open to the public and not anywhere that is not?
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1859808
Flintstone wrote:
skydriller wrote:Presumably........



You sure you want to go that way? :wink:

It's a private strip which at every mention is marked 'PPR required'. Can't make it any clearer than that.


Presumably.... you did see my posts on PPR wrt private airstrips? :wink:
By Ibra
#1859810
Anytime we talk about the need to have PPR in public & busy places like Kemble (EGBP) or Old Warden (EGTH) where phone PPR is a pure bureaucracy: usually it’s someone not even aviation related who will read AIP & Notams sections for you :lol: , there is always someone who come up in the discussion to say that their “ZZZZ unknown strictly private challenging grass strip middle of the woods (that no one here have visited in the past or care to visit in the future)” needs PPR as one day they spotted the first non-PPR visitor aircraft flying, happens once in 10 years, and they can’t forget that memorable day as well as the type/colour/reg of that aircraft :lol:
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By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1859909
skydriller wrote:Presumably........:


I did try to warn you where that might lead.


skydriller wrote:You read my........:


No, I didn't. I was responding only to your comment to me. :wink:
By Uaglio
#1859950
PPR can be a useful tool for airports who have a requirement to restrict traffic in certain circumstances. It must not be forgotten that flow regulation only applies to IFR flights, not VFR, so if an airport has a requirement to impose additional measures to manage its traffic flow, it can NOTAM a PPR requirement. This will enable whoever is managing the restriction (ATC, if it is an ATM issue, or Airport Ops/Handling if it is parking) to agree an arrival time slot, or even to inform the potential customer that there is no space for the proposed flight. Examples of where this might be required are:
- restricted apron space due WIP
- restricted apron space or handling agent capacity due special events
- the introduction of new procedures or technology, with associated training
- staff shortages in ATC / RFFS / handling
- WIP on taxiways / runways
- a requirement for short notice ad-hoc infrastructure repair to be conducted in slack periods
In the main, these measures are imposed to minimise impact on what the airport business considers to be its 'core traffic', which in an airport environment will generate more non-aviation revenue (car parking, duty-free, passenger services, rents to third parties, advertising etc.) than that generated by aviation revenue (landing, approach and parking fees). What constitutes "core traffic" will almost certainly be decided at strategic level, and the decision passed down to the operational teams to implement.
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By Rob P
#1859961
Uaglio wrote:Examples of where this might be required are:
- restricted apron space due WIP
- restricted apron space or handling agent capacity due special events
- the introduction of new procedures or technology, with associated training
- staff shortages in ATC / RFFS / handling
- WIP on taxiways / runways
- a requirement for short notice ad-hoc infrastructure repair to be conducted in slack periods
In the main, these ...


... are not known to occur anywhere in Europe other than the UK

Rob P
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