Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854407
Expensive parts ordered for a customer specific would also be reasonable to be paid for in advance.


Our engineer sometimes invites us to order parts direct and supply them to him.......
By Dominie
#1854432
johnm wrote:
Expensive parts ordered for a customer specific would also be reasonable to be paid for in advance.


Our engineer sometimes invites us to order parts direct and supply them to him.......

...which protects the customer in the event that the company goes bust. Doing this for expensive parts might also keep the engineer under the VAT limit, thus saving him hassle and you money.
User avatar
By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854445
Not much of a business if under the VAT limit!
Even I was VAT registered.
Advantage of ordering the parts yourself is that the maintenance company can not mark them up.

Another thought is that if you don’t make a deposit and stage payments the maintenance company can give preference to jobs that make immediate money for it.
Cash flow.
User avatar
By ThePipster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1854474
I agree that the amount of notice given was too short and it sounds like the communication was sub-standard.

As @MichaelP has alluded to, lots of engineers have been naive in their commercial dealings and have given credit where it wasn't needed.

Whilst it is easy to draw comparisions with the automotive world, the sums involved in avaition are significantly greater, storage costs are much higher and bad debt recovery is much harder. I wouldn't expect to have to pay in advance for routine maintence, but I wouldn't automatically expect to be able to take the aircraft away without paying the bill.

For big ticket items such as engines, props, paint and upholstery I would expect to pay a significant deposit. For restoration work I would expect to pay an initial deposit followed by stage payments.

Going back to the OP. I would discuss the matter politely with the maintenance organisation involved and establish the reasons behind the request. If you don't like what you hear then take your aircraft elsewhere.

ATB

Pipster
MichaelP, flybymike liked this
User avatar
By Bald Sparrow
#1854655
Have you ever paid in advance for car servicing?
It is usual to pay when you pick up the car.

If the maintainer has your aircraft in his hangar and you have been prompt settling you bills in the past, payment in advance can only help the maintainers cashflow.
If they suddenly need help with their cashflow, then they might be in financial trouble. I would even challenge someone asking for a deposit to overhaul an engine.

As The Pipster says, ask them why.

Everyone takes a risk when handing an aircraft over to a maintainer because the maintainer could cease trading with the aircraft in bits in the hangar. It does happen.

If anyone needs someone to help them negotiate with a maintainer, I am happy to help. Just PM me.
User avatar
By Trent772
#1854785
gasman wrote:
I was watching my aeroplane on webcam being taxied from maintenance to my hangar when the emailed invoice for the annual pinged through :cry:


Blame Derek - he installed his new computers that are obviously very fast :mrgreen:
flybymike liked this
User avatar
By Jonzarno
#1854787
Bald Sparrow wrote:If they suddenly need help with their cashflow, then they might be in financial trouble.


If, for any reason, you do pay up front be sure to use a credit (NOT debit) card. That way, if something goes wrong, you have recourse on the credit card provider.

The same goes for flying lessons!
flybymike liked this
User avatar
By gasman
#1854789
Jonzarno wrote:If, for any reason, you do pay up front be sure to use a credit (NOT debit) card. That way, if something goes wrong, you have recourse on the credit card provider.
!


Unfortunately my credit card limit is only a fraction of my average maintenance bill !

:lol:
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1855100
Bald Sparrow wrote:Have you ever paid in advance for car servicing?
It is usual to pay when you pick up the car.

If the maintainer has your aircraft in his hangar and you have been prompt settling you bills in the past, payment in advance can only help the maintainers cashflow.
If they suddenly need help with their cashflow, then they might be in financial trouble. I would even challenge someone asking for a deposit to overhaul an engine.

As The Pipster says, ask them why.

Everyone takes a risk when handing an aircraft over to a maintainer because the maintainer could cease trading with the aircraft in bits in the hangar. It does happen.

If anyone needs someone to help them negotiate with a maintainer, I am happy to help. Just PM me.


Unless you own a Bentley or a McLaren, the servicing costs of a car are typically a fraction of that of your average CofA, and takes a fraction of the time.

Rebuilding even something like an O-200 can demolish £20k, so I don't think it would be unreasonable for a rebuilder to ask for part payment.

Personally, in both cases, I'd probably ask for an invoice for all the parts to be used once they'd sourced them, and pay that. If the engineer goes pop the following week, at least you can walk in and claim "your" materials at the same time you claim your aeroplane/engine.
flybymike liked this
User avatar
By Hermitageclose
#1855141
gasman wrote:
Jonzarno wrote:
Unfortunately my credit card limit is only a fraction of my average maintenance bill !

:lol:


That is still not a problem, a little understood quirk of the Section 75 credit protection is that you would only need £1 to actually be paid for on your credit card and the rest of the balance any other payment method of your choice to be covered by the Credit Card for the full amount of your purchase. e.g. You maintenance bill was £5000, you pay £1 on credit card and the other £4999 by debit card/cheque etc.

The only applicable criteria is what you are paying for must be at least £100 and not more than £30,000...
By Grumpy cricket
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1855890
I am interested in all the replies the majority of which seem to be equally appalled. The Company is Vintage Aero at N. Weald, previously North Weald Flying Services a company who had been servicing my aircraft for the last 20 years!

Unfortunately I should have removed the aircraft following an incident when I declaired a Mayday near Lydd last year. It transpired that the fuel cap o rings fitted were the wrong type and allowed water ingress resulting in power loss. Despite A1 checks rigorously done, it seems my aircraft sits tail low and the fuel drains are therefore not at the lowest point of the tanks. (I now give the tail a couple of lifts!)

My mistake in not taking action earlier and accepting their response. However under any circumstance 40 hours prepayment is I would suggest excessive! Particularly since, when queried, the response was. "Well we made a loss last year"
User avatar
By Bald Sparrow
#1855920
Sooty25 wrote:
Unless you own a Bentley or a McLaren, the servicing costs of a car are typically a fraction of that of your average CofA, and takes a fraction of the time.

Rebuilding even something like an O-200 can demolish £20k, so I don't think it would be unreasonable for a rebuilder to ask for part payment.

Personally, in both cases, I'd probably ask for an invoice for all the parts to be used once they'd sourced them, and pay that. If the engineer goes pop the following week, at least you can walk in and claim "your" materials at the same time you claim your aeroplane/engine.


The price I would expect to pay for a service to a BMW (at a main dealer charging 2 or 3 times per hour the labour cost of a light aircraft engineer) is more than some owners expect to pay for their PA-28's Annual Inspection. I expect a quotation for a car service but not to be asked to pay upfront.

If business stops trading, it can be difficult to establish the ownership of parts. How do you identify the oil filter paid for by a customer from the other identical oil filters in stock?
It is reasonable to ask for part payment. It is also reasonable to refuse and negotiate another arrangement or to go elsewhere.

A good business transaction results in both sides being happy.
User avatar
By Rob L
#1855963
Perhaps not directly relevant, but several years ago, my group had an engine in for overhaul at the workshop of a certain St Neots engine company which went through a change of ownership just at the time we were engineless. I feared that we might lose our asset in the financial mêlée.

Fortunately, one of my group members at the time was familiar with the possible outcomes, so very quickly established an escrow (or similar) with them & us and an intermediary before their change of ownership became legal.
It was a worry at the time, with £15,000 of our money at stake.

It all worked out in the end:
They got their change of ownership.
We got our engine back (worked upon as contracted to our satisfaction).
We paid the new company our bills.
The employees kept their jobs & got paid.
The company continues to this day (I have used them since with equal satisfaction because it's the same folk working there).

BUT it could have been different. I didn't pay for the financial advice, because he was a group member (hence free), but I would never avoid paying for professional advice when it is needed.