Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Andrew Sinclair
#1853283
1st time for me today in 20+ years of flying. It was an interesting experience and I am glad that I like to keep on top of my paperwork and carry my licence, medical, photo ID etc etc. :shifty:

On arrival at Gloucester two CAA Enforcement Inspectors made themselves known by warrant cards and separated my student and myself for interview. We had, as I always insist on doing, agreed who was P1. In this case I was P1 and instructing and the pilot I was instructing is a multi-thousand hour ex-RAF sky-deity, so even more important to make sure both know who’s in command.

Anyway, checked licence, medical, ID and all the aircraft documentation, CofR, CofA and insurance. Wanted to know the purpose of the flight and under what rules the flight was operated IFR under Part-NCO.

For those who fly other folk’s aircraft or are part of a group, it would be well worth having a proper look at the folder stuffed in the back of one of the seats to make sure all is well before kicking the tyres and lighting the fires, just in case…

We received a clean bill of health but I was under no illusion that had we not been, then it would have been the very naughty step for me :naughty:
Flyin'Dutch', 2Donkeys, B1engineer and 2 others liked this
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By 2Donkeys
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853294
Resources at the CAA are sufficiently limited that for two inspectors to be at Gloucester, the most reasonable explanation is that the check was targeted. If not on you, then on a flight at roughly that time and place.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853297
These enforcement people would of course not be able to help and alleviate the difficulties in other areas and maybe they are better deployed doing a few ramp checks than taking statements of those who might have infringed by 10 ft.

And from the 100s of people seeing this thread most will have a glance at their and their aeroplanes paper work.

So from that perspective an excellent use of a scarce resource.
T6Harvard, AndyR, Cub and 4 others liked this
By Big Dex
#1853304
Here’s what I don’t get:

They demand that you produce all this paperwork (which I couldn’t, I don’t carry this on board when flying domestically), yet checking ID alone should enable them to look at their own systems to ascertain license, medical, registration, permit and insurance status.

I’m also not entirely sure what rights they have to detain and interview you; pretty sure that’s a job for the police.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853305
They targeted a wide range of aircraft including ours and there were quite a few of them. Our pilot has a picture of himself with the 3 who crawled over the paperwork.

The suspicion is that they'll be found wanting over the Sala incident and they're covering their "bases"
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By ThePipster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853311
I had a vague recollection that the carriage of documents requirements was another regulatory dogs breakfast.......

From the skyway code (my bold):

Carriage of documents
> For non-Part-21 aircraft flying within the UK, there are no document carriage requirements other
than charts for navigation.

> When exercising the privileges of an Part-FCL licence you must carry the licence document and photo
ID with you at all times. This should be a driving licence or passport.

> For Part-21 aircraft, aeroplanes and helicopters under Part-NCO, you must always carry:
> Aircraft flight manual;
> Current charts;
> Interception procedures;
> Flight plan details (if one has been led); and
> Minimum Equipment List (if you operate with one).


Some theoretical questions arise:

As the holder of two licences, lifetime PPL and Part-FCL, when the either licence is valid for flight on a particular aeroplane, which licence is determined to be applicable in law?

I am guessing that this is just sloppy drafting but it reads that whilst charts are required to be carried in both Part-21 and non-Part21 aircraft, they only need to be current in Part-21 aircraft!

Has anyone been ramp checked in a GA aircraft and used SkyDemon or another electronic chart as proof of carrying a current chart? More importantly was it accepted?

Interesting to note that flight in a Part-21 aircraft requires current charts and interception procedures (I always thought that they were only a requirement for international flight) but seemingly no requirement to carry registration, airworthiness or insurance documents.

Anyone know if the CAA issue the equivalent of the old police ‘producer’ if the correct documents are not being carried or do they simply start legal proceedings?

Pipster
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853315
Big Dex wrote:Here’s what I don’t get:

They demand that you produce all this paperwork (which I couldn’t, I don’t carry this on board when flying domestically), yet checking ID alone should enable them to look at their own systems to ascertain license, medical, registration, permit and insurance status.

I’m also not entirely sure what rights they have to detain and interview you; pretty sure that’s a job for the police.


Dex,

They have warrant cards and all the usual powers the police has, including those of arrest.

The CAA is also an organisation which can prosecute without having to go through the CPS...
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853319
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:These enforcement people would of course not be able to help and alleviate the difficulties in other areas and maybe they are better deployed doing a few ramp checks than taking statements of those who might have infringed by 10 ft.

And from the 100s of people seeing this thread most will have a glance at their and their aeroplanes paper work.

So from that perspective an excellent use of a scarce resource.


Equally influential in behaviour terms, is the wondering amongst the GA community about where and when members of IET may reappear over the coming weeks ;-)
#1853324
2Donkeys wrote:Resources at the CAA are sufficiently limited that for two inspectors to be at Gloucester, the most reasonable explanation is that the check was targeted. If not on you, then on a flight at roughly that time and place.


I don’t believe our flight was targeted, there were at least 4 other inspectors present conducting all sorts of checks at one of the maintenance organisations* we just got selected randomly as we arrived to get a tyre change.

Well at least I hope we weren’t :shock:

*and for the avoidance of any doubt I am not casting any aspersions by implication on the maintenance org, they are one of the best around and there is a lovely TB20 sat outside @2Donkeys :D
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair on Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853326
ThePipster wrote:
Has anyone been ramp checked in a GA aircraft and used SkyDemon or another electronic chart as proof of carrying a current chart? More importantly was it accepted?


I have been involved in an IET investigation that has examined and accepted SkyDemon (other products are available) as carrying a current chart. Indeed, it helps that a subscription to SD is a reasonable indication that the chart being used is ‘current’ rather than having to produce evidence of how one has updated any paper chart with the latest information in order to make it ‘current’.
#1853328
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:…And from the 100s of people seeing this thread most will have a glance at their and their aeroplanes paper work.

So from that perspective an excellent use of a scarce resource.


That’s what I thought. Lockdown having eased now people are getting back up there, lots of complicated extensions etc, worth having a fresh look at all the paperwork.
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By Ibra
#1853329
Any request on providing poof of your opeeational flight planing (e.g. printed Notams, WnB, Fuel Calcs...)? or just having up to date aircraft & pilot docs?
Last edited by Ibra on Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.