Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By Charles Hunt
#1852973
I used to live in a village just inside the Gatwick zone. I forget the details of the call but said that I wished to enter the zone, take a few photos and then exit the zone abeam Horsham. Being even less experienced than now the response seemed to be broadly positive, but I didn't hear the magic words 'cleared' or 'Radar control'.

The next thing I heard was "YOU ARE INSIDE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE!!!!!"
By Mike Tango
#1852980
akg1486 wrote:
ATC workload is kind of a bad excuse: it doesn't take longer to include one of the magic words. If ATC really has too high workload they should just decline the request and I'll happily continue with my plan B through uncontrolled airspace, just like the OP had prepared. In the area around our base (say an hour or two from home) I know pretty well where I can expect clearance all the time, where I'll get it now and then and where I have to be really lucky.


ATC workload is no excuse whatsoever for the type of r/t exchange referred to by the OP.

The wording of clearances by ATC is vitally important, the controller/unit concerned should be taken to task over such shoddy practices.
akg1486, 2Donkeys liked this
By Mike Tango
#1852984
G-JWTP wrote:
Pete L wrote:Luton seems to be the same at the moment - controllers are being extra helpful.


Luton has always been good.

G-JWTP


May not be that well known, but for many years now the controllers that do Luton approach also quite likely do Essex Radar/Stansted approach. The two positions sit next to each other in the Terminal Control ops room and many of the approach controllers in that group are dual valid on both.
By rdfb
#1852988
What about clarity on exactly which bit of airspace you're cleared into? The other day I asked for a "CTA transit" and was given something like "cleared to enter the zone not above altitude (my current and requested level) VFR (VRP clearance limit)". At my current level, that would have put me into the CTA above the CTR, both managed by the same frequency according to my chart. However, to me that was a clearance into the zone (ie. CTR) not the CTA, so I asked for clarification, which I think confused the controller as to what airspace I wanted clearance into. This was one minute short of the boundary. I'd freecalled long in advance, was given an initial routing but not received a clearance, and had to prompt. Always a tense moment since I want to give the controller time but also don't want to start holding. Eventually the controller confirmed that I was cleared into the CTA too as it was class D (which I knew!) but still with vague wording.

I wish they'd just said "cleared into controlled airspace" or "cleared into the CTA" which would have been unambiguous. "Cleared into the zone" to me means the CTR only, or am I being too pedantic?

I wonder if part of this is because these particular controllers aren't used to granting many transits during normal times.
User avatar
By matthew_w100
#1852992
I did the M40j2/Burnham/Ascot route the other day. I was cleared unambiguously, with a VERY unambiguous clearance limit of Ascot Racecourse. Being naive I was expecting an onward clearance before I got there, but heard nothing. So as I approached I made a position call. And was told to "call Farnborough, goodbye". So now what am I supposed to do? Orbit in Heathrow's zone till I can find a gap in Farnborough's radio transmissions? Carry on towards Woking, and call F'boro as soon as I can? As far as I was concerned, I'm now in controlled airspace without a clearance, and the infringement course is beckoning.
User avatar
By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852993
I have never used "CTR or CTA or TMA" explicitly as far too many get confused about what they mean.

I have also heard the words "cleared to enter the zone" but interpreted this as the entire block of contiguous controlled airspace (CTR/CTA/TMA) unless there was another restriction such as an altitude.

I wouldn't want them to start naming the individual CTR/CTA/TMA numbered fillets. That would really cause me a headache.
By Ibra
#1852999
Southend makes a distinction on CTAs when I ask for one of the boxes for general handling (cleared to CTA4 when testing door open warning alarm or unusual attitudes :twisted: ) but for crossing airspace they just give 2400ft altitude restriction to VFR and you drive through CTR & CTA...

I don't see the need for CTR/CTA distinction? it's same guy and the same class of airspace?

Some UK TMAs are Class A, so you won't get VFR transit there (unless you are in Spain where ATC tend to clear or vector you VFR inside Class A to get out of the way of their important traffic, don't be the party spoiler who says unable :lol: )
By As I CFIT
#1853003
Ibra wrote:My understanding VFR clerances under Radar Control Service to CTR, CTA & TMA do not allow one to enter ATZ


In practise, it's impossible to infringe the ATZ of the controlling airport if you adhere to your initial clearance and subsequently follow all ATC instructions. If there is a separate ATZ for another airfield within the CTR or an overlap between a separate ATZ and a CTA, then yes, your clearance to enter controlled airspace would not necessarily apply to that ATZ.

rdfb wrote:I wish they'd just said "cleared into controlled airspace" or "cleared into the CTA" which would have been unambiguous. "Cleared into the zone" to me means the CTR only, or am I being too pedantic?


I'm sure that I have been "cleared to enter controlled airspace" so perhaps the delivery of such VFR clearances isn't standardised. I think that the point is moot anyway because your clearance is predicated on a certain routeing. Fly the route, follow any subsequent routeing instructions and you can't end up going anywhere that you haven't been cleared to.
Ibra liked this
By Fellsteruk
#1853012
I’m a very green ppl but I’d be very confused by the lack of a distinct clearance you experienced. I’ve spent about 90% of my training in class D at Liverpool done plenty of transits and rejoins and always been “cleared to join at X not above Y, report at Z” plenty of holds at different VRPs inside the class D and then confirmation of a “radar controlled service” all to be read back.

Sounds like a lazy controller... but as I say I’m green and lots to learn!!
User avatar
By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1853087
matthew_w100 wrote:I did the M40j2/Burnham/Ascot route the other day. I was cleared unambiguously, with a VERY unambiguous clearance limit of Ascot Racecourse. Being naive I was expecting an onward clearance before I got there, but heard nothing. So as I approached I made a position call. And was told to "call Farnborough, goodbye". So now what am I supposed to do? Orbit in Heathrow's zone till I can find a gap in Farnborough's radio transmissions? Carry on towards Woking, and call F'boro as soon as I can? As far as I was concerned, I'm now in controlled airspace without a clearance, and the infringement course is beckoning.

Interesting ... and not very helpful from Heathrow.
Although you were still in CAS, you had been given a clearance, so although they had told you to contact F'boro, you were not infringing their CAS. Just like when Approach tell you to contact Tower you remain clear in the CAS you're in. Of course, in this case you were then going to another part of CAS with a different controlling entity. If you did not manage to get a call in and clearance from F'boro you would strictly speaking need to go back to LHR and ask for an orbit (assuming you were given Radar control and not an 'own navigation not above' service, in which case you could orbit to your heart's content). All rather messy and involving lots of knobs.
Apart from the lesson that LHR doesn't seem fully aware of airspace around them, the lesson for us as pilots should be that we need to explicitly ask LHR to either negotiate a clearance and/or handover with F'boro in this case, and to ask for that sooner rather than later, preferably as part of the first request for transit (not just at LHR/F'boro but also at other similar setups).
Alternatively, you could have replied to the LHR hand-off with "negative, I need clearance from F'boro" and sort of try to make it their problem that you cannot exit their CAS... but at that stage it's too late and things are messy already.

What happened on your actual flight?
Last edited by Morten on Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
By Ibra
#1853088
For VFR you have to clarify with a ATC for next handover before reaching zone boundary or ask to change frequency, I
learned this the hardway, stuck at airspace boundary between Murcia & Alicante and between Cardiff & Bristol, in both cases, I got cleared hastly into airspace before getting thrown out of airspace on 90deg turns while going down like a brick...