Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Rob P
#1852775
TopCat wrote:I sat in on Andrew Sinclair's FRTOL course recently


I have been coaching on the BGA FRTOL course and it was very much a case that with a lot of the changes I got to learn them only just ahead of the students.

Rob P
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By Mike Tango
#1852797
Dave W wrote:
If so, I am embarassed to say that I catch myself doing that every now and again. It usually happens when my head is full, having been passed 4 bits of numerical info in the same call.

I know the cure: "Slow Down, Dave". Easier said than done sometimes!


That is bad from air traffic. The cure is not Dave having to slow down, Dave shouldn’t have to slow down.

Air traffic shouldn’t be passing many multiples of numerical information that needs to be read back in one transmission, and those that insist on doing so need educated. It increases the chance of an incorrect read back which may be missed by the controller, potentially leading to incident or worse.

If given three or four sets of numbers needing to be read back, I suggest reading back a couple then asking for the other two to be repeated. Hopefully ATC will get the message, especially those that think speaking fast with information overload is big and clever. Which of course it is not.
By As I CFIT
#1852798
MichaelP wrote:I don’t bawl people out, but I have knocked a few thumbs off the transmit switch in my time. Most often when the other person is responding to someone else's call!


Totally inappropriate conduct, I'm afraid. Unless someone is either doing or about to do something clearly unsafe, there's no excuse for physical interference. Do this to the wrong person and you might get a not-so-gentle reminder of what is and what is not in your remit as an instructor!
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By Trent772
#1852801
Mike Tango wrote:
That is bad from air traffic. The cure is not Dave having to slow down, Dave shouldn’t have to slow down.

Air traffic shouldn’t be passing many multiples of numerical information that needs to be read back in one transmission, and those that insist on doing so need educated. It increases the chance of an incorrect read back which may be missed by the controller, potentially leading to incident or worse.

If given three or four sets of numbers needing to be read back, I suggest reading back a couple then asking for the other two to be repeated. Hopefully ATC will get the message, especially those that think speaking fast with information overload is big and clever. Which of course it is not.



Best ever for me was in Las Vegas.

Went something like

Kestrel 33, on that heading clear to intercept the localiser 25L, when ready break off visual, you are following a Lear 4 miles in front, caution helicopter traffic along Tropicana, don't join final below 4000', clear land 19R.

The FO just looked at me a bit funny....... I read it back :pirat:

Happy days.........
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User avatar
By Charles Hunt
#1852803
AndyR wrote:When are the Americans ever going to learn how to pronounce Bovingdon as that and not Baavintuun :eye:


Decades ago Sally and I were wandering in Mandalay, when an old chap comes up to us loudly proclaiming "Bo Bing Drang" "Bo Bring Drang" or so it seemed to us.

Once two way comprehension had been established it turned out that he was a retired army Colonel who had done his tank training at Bovington.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852808
@Mike Tango - too true; 4 bits of information in one transmission isn't at all helpful.

What I suppose I meant, really, was that my part of a joint solution to that scenario is to slow down my response, and if that includes asking for repetition than that's part of the slowing down. The other part of the joint solution would be to give me info in bite-size chunks, and then the whole exchange will end up being shorter, likely enabling the service to be provided to more aircraft overall.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852825
When are the Americans ever going to learn how to pronounce Bovingdon as that and not Baavintuun :eye:


When they learn Birmingham is not Birming-ham! :D
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By Rob P
#1852826
That's all very well, but one of our tenants drawn from the local visiting forces would insist on calling the nearby city "Camm - Bridge"

We tried to guide him, but the wheels fell off when we had to confess that the river is actually called The Cam not The Came

Rob P
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By UV
#1852829
Dave W wrote:The other part of the joint solution would be to give me info in bite-size chunks, and then the whole exchange will end up being shorter, likely enabling the service to be provided to more aircraft overall.


Quite. This is something the RAF is very good at. In a past life I operated in and out of many RAF stations and not once did they ever give more than two bits of information at once. If it took several transmissions, so be it. I often wondered whether it was an SOP. If so, civilian ATC could do well to look at it.

Another thing....If you listen into some North London GA airfields, nowadays, practically every student pilots’ natural tongue is not English. Rarely do you hear anything other than a foreign accent from a training aircraft apart from the Instructor. Often difficult to understand unless they use standard RT.

Times are changing!
User avatar
By townleyc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852847
TopCat wrote:
MichaelP wrote:
I'd like to have the chance to get bawled out old-school stylee by you one of these days.


I don’t bawl people out, but I have knocked a few thumbs off the transmit switch in my time. Most often when the other person is responding to someone else's call!

However, if you pay me enough I suppose I can attend to a masochistic desire for the right price.

Where are you based? Perhaps an initial visit first just to establish who's the scarier ;)


I should think TopCat - especially if he comes with Officer Dibble :shock:

KE
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1852857
MichaelP wrote:I’m not scary at all.

Well that's a little disappointing.
I haunt Popham, and Redhill.

Popham I like. Not overly keen on 03, but a glide approach on to it focuses the mind.
Can be spotted at Goodwood, White Waltham, and on occasion Blackbushe.

I learned at Goodwood, now most often seen at White Waltham.
By condor17
#1852879
Andy R , BNN has been mispronounced by the US since '73 to my knowledge . Have the Jeppeson charts used by US guys mis -spelled it ?
Centuries ago , well 1/2 ... was told that ATC gave you 3 pieces of info , Hdg 320 , des 4000' QNH 1019 ...
And then in a separate transmission Swk 4096 , contact Director119.4 .
Human brain can take bite size chunks of 3 things at once .
US a/ds can be fast , but a gold star to JFK , historically I was expecting them to be bad .. Not so ; they get lots of foreign carriers . And thus have to speak understandably to all.

rgds condor
User avatar
By Ophelia Gently
#1852885
This is something the RAF is very good at. In a past life I operated in and out of many RAF stations and not once did they ever give more than two bits of information at once. If it took several transmissions, so be it. I often wondered whether it was an SOP. If so, civilian ATC could do well to look at it.

Another thing....If you listen into some North London GA airfields, nowadays, practically every student pilots’ natural tongue is not English. Rarely do you hear anything other than a foreign accent from a training aircraft apart from the Instructor. Often difficult to understand unless they use standard RT.

Times are changing!


Indeed it was Policy. Usually only one alphanumeric piece at a time; hence "set QFE XYZ" "XYZ set" "Descend report level height 2000 ft" etc. It was taken further at FTSs when one could not give a turn AND descent instructions in in the same transmission. So it was: "Descend report level 2000 ft" (readback) - pause for effect and establish descent and trim - "Turn left heading ABC". In other words get the descent going before the turn.

It all stemmed from a disorientation/loss of control accident with a JP stude in the 60's who was given too much alphanumeric info and tied to set the QFE as his squawk and his squawk as a frequency etc and got overloaded. (He ejected safely).
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