Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By As I CFIT
#1851857
The AIP entry suggests that if you squawk 7010, you can fly in the part of the the circuit which lies within the CTR without a clearance. Therefore when departing from runway 23, squawk 7010, remain in the circuit until outside the CTR (downwind), squawk conspicuity and then either route outside controlled airspace or get a clearance to enter.
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By Iceman
#1851888
I’ve only ever been to Sandtoft once, by mistake :D.

I had called Mr. Cambrai to meet him for a measure-up for an aircraft cover. He stated in the conversation that they were at Langtoft and would see me later. Knowing that there was no UK airfield called Langtoft, my brain naturally heard Sandtoft. I flew to Sandtoft from Blackbushe, waited for 30 minutes, and no one turned up. I rang him and he asked where I was. I said that I was stood my the brick control tower. ‘We haven’t got a brick control tower’ he replied. Bugger ! ‘Where the hell are you then ?’ I asked. ‘Eddsfield’ he replied. ‘You didn’t even mention that place earlier, where is it ?’ I said. Fortunately, not too far away :lol: :roll:. We had a great welcome when we did eventually get there, with a great bacon buttie and tea whilst Mr. Cambrai measured the Commander.

I guess that I must return to Sandtoft as I can’t recall anything about the place itself, other than one or two Bloodhound missiles, I seem to recall.

Iceman 8)
By TopCat
#1851894
gasman wrote:The irony is that Doncaster’s class D airspace is woefully under-utilised and difficult to justify.
:roll:

That was my thought too, and possibly explains the controller's helpfulness in offering routings and altitudes for the clearance that he thought would be helpful. Several took him up on it too.
By Bathman
#1851897
Do they have many infringements there? Looks like a right hotspot.

And if your inbound do the local LARS providers/London info pass you the RPS or Doncasters QNH?
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By Morten
#1851901
FlightDek wrote:The AIP entry is contadictory

1 AIRPORT REGULATIONS
c) Inbound/Outbound aircraft not in contact with Doncaster Radar are to monitor the Doncaster Radar frequency and squawk the listening code (6170).

and
4 WARNINGS
a) Aerodrome is on the boundary of the Doncaster Sheffield CTR and beneath Class D CTAs (bases 1500 FT AMSL and 2000 FT AMSL).
All Sandtoft arrivals and departures are to contact Doncaster Radar on frequency 126.225 MHz for clearance through the Doncaster
Sheffield CTR/CTA.

My bold. Which is it? Do you need a clearance or can you use the listening squawk?

Not sure I see that as contradictory. You need a clearance to enter the CTR/CTA (as you would expect, so no surprise there). Furthermore, when you depart/arrive but when you are not in touch with them you should monitor and squawk. It's really what one would expect.
What surprises me slightly is that you are allowed to take off on 23 without having contacted, directly or through Sandtoft Radio, as you will be entering the CTR. Maybe it is because the centre of their runway is not actually inside, but I believe for other airfields on similar locations that some sort of coordination is the norm. But long live pragmatism :D
I couldn't see any reference to circuit direction, merely a reference to OHJ @1500 ft? But it would appear sensible, as long as you can avoid the village on the east side, that circuits should be on the east?

As I CFIT wrote:The AIP entry suggests that if you squawk 7010, you can fly in the part of the the circuit which lies within the CTR without a clearance.

Which part of the AIP entry suggests that? :scratch:
By kui2324
#1851910
@Morten
Taken from AIP
EGCF AD 2.20 LOCAL AERODROME REGULATIONS
1 AIRPORT REGULATIONS
a) Visiting pilots to wear high visibility clothing and follow procedure when crossing runway from Hold E to control.
b) Transponder equipped aircraft operating in the circuit to squawk the VFR aerodrome traffic pattern conspicuity code (7010).
c) Inbound/Outbound aircraft not in contact with Doncaster Radar are to monitor the Doncaster Radar frequency and squawk the listening
code (6170).
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By Iceman
#1851911
It’s interesting that the AIP makes no mention of an LFA (with associated rules) for the ATZ / CTR overlap, as would be the case for Blackbushe, Fairoaks, White Waltham, etc., that overlap adjacent controlled airspace. Consequently, I still have no idea if I’m supposed to get a pre-clearance from Doncaster for that 23 departure.

Iceman 8)
Last edited by Iceman on Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
By SteveX
#1851912
I would purposely not call Doncaster inbound on the basis I have no legal requirement to do so (approaching at 1300 from the north or east that is, outside the CTR). Nobody on the ILS will be at 1300 that far out, and in any case its outside controlled airspace
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By Morten
#1851914
kui2324 wrote:@Morten
Taken from AIP
EGCF AD 2.20 LOCAL AERODROME REGULATIONS
1 AIRPORT REGULATIONS
a) Visiting pilots to wear high visibility clothing and follow procedure when crossing runway from Hold E to control.
b) Transponder equipped aircraft operating in the circuit to squawk the VFR aerodrome traffic pattern conspicuity code (7010).
c) Inbound/Outbound aircraft not in contact with Doncaster Radar are to monitor the Doncaster Radar frequency and squawk the listening
code (6170).

Quite. But which part of that text suggests that circuit traffic within the CTR does not need a clearance? I don't see the words 'clearance' or CTR or anything like it...

Iceman wrote:It’s interesting that the AIP makes no mention of an LFA (with associated rules) for the ATZ / CTR overlap, as would be the case for Blackbushe, Fairoaks, White Waltham, etc., that overlap adjacent controlled airspace. Consequently, I still have no idea if I’m supposed to get a pre-clearance from Doncaster for that 23 departure.

Agree, based on experience from those others, that is what you would expect.
In the absence of anything telling me otherwise, I'd probably assume that a clearance would be needed and unless I could find information at Sandtoft telling me otherwise, give Doncaster ATC a quick call on the phone before departing, if nothing else to be told I'm wasting my time. Even if that might be a complete waste of time, it strikes me as the right thing to do for very little effort.
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By TopCat
#1851919
Iceman wrote:It’s interesting that the AIP makes no mention of an LFA (with associated rules) for the ATZ / CTR overlap, as would be the case for Blackbushe, Fairoaks, White Waltham, etc., that overlap adjacent controlled airspace. Consequently, I still have no idea if I’m supposed to get a pre-clearance from Doncaster for that 23 departure.

I agree, it's very odd in this respect. One paragraph on a LFA could remove all the ambiguity.
By As I CFIT
#1851957
Morten wrote:Quite. But which part of that text suggests that circuit traffic within the CTR does not need a clearance? I don't see the words 'clearance' or CTR or anything like it...


The instruction is for circuit traffic to squawk 7010, not to obtain a clearance prior to departure. A requirement to simultaneously squawk 7010 and be in receipt of a clearance would make no sense, as having a clearance requires you to be in contact with ATC who would tell you what to squawk, thus negating the need to stipulate a dedicated circuit transponder code in the AIP entry!
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By Morten
#1851970
I do think that would be trying to assert a suggestion which is not there.
I think we agree that flying in Class D requires a clearance.
Whether an AIP entry for an aerodrome which happens to have its ATZ overlapping Class D tells you to do something in addition does not remove that requirement.

An ATC clearance could give you another squawk code which could be inconsistent with the 7010 in the AIP, but I think that to interpret that as a suggestion that merely squawking 7010 means that you do not require a CTR clearance would be difficult to defend.

As an aside, and all due respect to Sandtoft, given the choice between potentially putting me inside CAS without a clearance or, having obtained a clearance, squawking an incorrect code for an airfield which has no official way of actually knowing what I squawk... I know what I'd do... And, probably more to the point, I think I also know what would be better from a flight safety and, if you want, "airmanship" point of view.
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By Iceman
#1851971
Exactly, telling you to squawk 7010 in the circuit is no substitute for and does not constitute a clearance into controlled airspace.

At Blackbushe, we have a similar squawk when in the circuit. However, when Blackbushe ATC go home, the LFA reverts to Farnborough Class D and a positive clearance from Farnborough is then required to enter the LFA. The squawking of 7010 during normal Blackbushe ops and the establishment of the LFA during that period is purely down to an LOA between Blackbushe and Farnborough. I see no equivalent details whatsoever in the Sandtoft AIP entry that that agreement on the ATZ / CTR overlap exists. If no such details are promulgated then I have to assume that there is no local agreement to be able to use the ATZ / CTR overlap without a positive clearance from Doncaster. Such an agreement also covers weather minima for VFR / SVFR use of the Class D overlap.

Iceman 8)
By As I CFIT
#1851982
Morten wrote:I think we agree that flying in Class D requires a clearance.
Whether an AIP entry for an aerodrome which happens to have its ATZ overlapping Class D tells you to do something in addition does not remove that requirement.


Let's look at the matter in practical terms. When taking off from runway 23, you enter the CTR more or less upon passing the departure end of the runway. The only possible way to get a clearance in this instance is to get it whilst you're still on the ground. I very much doubt that this happens as a matter of course for departures from runway 23 that intend to remain in the circuit. I stand to be corrected and it would indeed be helpful if a Sandtoft resident were to come on here and say 'actually, that is exactly what we do'. Without this, we can only go by what's in the AIP and our knowledge of the rules but my assumption is that there is an agreement between Doncaster ATC and Sandtoft's management which reduces the burden on both ATC and pilots for circuit-bound departures from runway 23. Just because the procedure isn't promulgated in the AIP it doesn't mean that there isn't one, as inconvenient as this is.