Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1851668
It's just another "Barton Interpretation"

The NATS rule is to operate a transponder and listen on a frequency - if equipped

The Barton Interpretation is that if you don't have a transponder or radio you have to obtain a clearance from Manchester ATC on 118.580, which is pretty tricky if you don't have a radio.

Yet another rule made up on the hoof?

Rob P
Talkdownman, flybymike liked this
#1851677
That's not a usage of "unclear" I have encountered before.

Careless could be more appropriate surely?

Or are we in a 'be nice to Barton' mode?

I am getting pretty tired of 'rules' and suggestions that are either ill thought through or impractical

Rob P
flybymike, Iceman liked this
#1851710
Sorry I think this is a stupid question sorry if so but I wanted to check.

When I was flying out of Liverpool I’d often use the LLR using Liverpool QNH and on a basic service with them so their Code in the box.

Never had any issues with this even though the old rules still stated you needed to listen on Manchester and their code.

I’m guessing if they are now being more strict about the adherence to rules this wouldn’t be allowed any more?

That’s was during training days, now I’d just get a crossing through Liverpool but what if I wanted to go to Barton from Hawden I would ask for a crossing say Chester to the J11M56 or Burtonwood which would plop me out on the LLR and straight to Barton. “It does save some time”

In that case I wouldn’t need to follow these rules for when I drop into the corridor would I?

Sorry if a bit specific but I intend to do this next week and want to check general consensus I can always call Liverpool atc and ask them before I leave.

Also I 2nd a crossing with Liverpool radar even when busy they will always try accommodate however if busy expect a hold around Kirby or M56 if to the north or Chester/ Helsby hill to the south
rogerb liked this
#1851719
It would appear that Manchester is the controlling authority for the LLR. It’s class D airspace so in principle not following the rules would be an infringement. Barton sits under a 2,000ft shelf of the Manchester CTA and once you’re under that you’ll be free to revert to squawking 7000 and not listening to Manchester. It looks like one of those situations where a second COM set would be useful - particularly because AIUI Barton like you to have the current ATIS.
#1851735
The whole point of the LLR was that it was like a VFR route in the USA. Stick to the route and you can simply fly and there's no need to talk to anybody. Adding an optional squawk and frequency is helpful, but enforcing use is not. :twisted:
Rob P, Iceman, rogerb and 2 others liked this
#1851737
This also means, for us single-radio operators, that upon exiting the LLR to the North when inbound to Barton at a standard cruise speed one was less than 2 minutes to establish communication with Barton before entering their ATZ (or you have to hold in the 3nm gap between the LLR and the Barton ATZ.

Previously, I have always made contact with Barton midway up the LLR and been assigned a 7365 code, which I understand indicates to Manchester that you are on Barton's frequency.
#1851738
VRB_20kt wrote:It would appear that Manchester is the controlling authority for the LLR. It’s class D airspace so in principle not following the rules would be an infringement. Barton sits under a 2,000ft shelf of the Manchester CTA and once you’re under that you’ll be free to revert to squawking 7000 and not listening to Manchester. It looks like one of those situations where a second COM set would be useful - particularly because AIUI Barton like you to have the current ATIS.


From our current discussions with Manchester ATC that’s correct. You now need to be following the procedure whilst you cross after exiting from the Liverpool CTR. We have asked the question to Manchester ATC for crossing the LLR in both directions and they confirmed this. We (and they) hope that may be scope (in time) that some arrangement can be agreed. Longer term I believe everyone’s ambition is to revert it to Class G, but that requires a lengthy and costly Airspace Change Proposal which the sponsor (in this case Manchester Airport) would need to fund.
#1851781
It's interesting that the NATS document posted by @xtophe earlier says...

Suitably equipped aircraft are to be flown in the Manchester Low Level Route with SSR code 7366 selected (unless displaying a special purpose code or code allocated/agreed by Manchester ATC) and listening out on Manchester Radar frequency 118.580 MHz, to enable the use of an alerting service if necessary, or to facilitate the early resolution of an airspace infringement.

Whilst anyone quite legitimately just referring to the current, or indeed even the next AIRAC cycle, AIP will see...

Within the Manchester Low Level Route aircraft may be flown by day or night in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules (ENR 1.2) without individual ATC clearance. Suitably equipped aircraft are to be flown in the Low Level Route with either SSR code 7366 selected and listening out on Manchester Radar frequency 118.580 MHz or SSR code 5060 and listening out on Liverpool Radar frequency 119.855 MHz.

:scratch: they don't make this flying lark consistent or straightforward, do they.