Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849176
G-BLEW wrote:
2Donkeys wrote:5) On arrival of the PPL, to fly a UK CAA IR Test. (I am exempt all TK on the basis of experience and an assessment by my chosen flight examiner)


Can you choose an examiner and train/prepare as necessary, or do you have to go through an ATO and a CAA designated examiner selection thing?

Thanks

Ian


Under EASA you could choose your examiner.

Under UK CAA you have never had that privilege, even when you were in EASA, although it's well known that you can game the system. It's CAA staff examiners (at considerable cost) or nothing. A few people used to deliberately organise their EASA I-IRTs outside of the UK for just that reason.

The training can be whatever you choose it to be on the other hand.

G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer on Tue May 25, 2021 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By 2Donkeys
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849179
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
Under EASA you could choose your examiner.

Under UK CAA you have never had that privilege, even when you were in EASA, although it's well known that you can game the system. It's CAA staff examiners (at considerable cost) or nothing. A few people used to deliberately organise their EASA I-IRTs outside of the UK for just that reason.

G


That runs counter to the advice I received from the CAA yesterday and from my anticipated IRE. The fact that contrary advice is floating around doesn't surprise me at all though.

The primary reason keeping me in the FAA system for all these years to the exclusion of CAA/JAA/EASA was the complete mess and uncertainty associated with our domestic system.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849180
If that has changed, it's done so in the last 6 months, but good. When I was sorting myself out last year to convert my FAA IR to an EASA+UK IR, the only way I could choose my examiner seemed to be by doing it in Spain.

If I was misadvised, ah well, I had a thoroughly enjoyable time in Jerez.

G
MichaelP liked this
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849184
As they are intent on change, two stupid/goldplate things need changing too
1) for any icao ppl, allow conversion by ato/dto assessment and recommendation (and pass) initial skills test (and exams) even if it does not have an in-date medical or rating. (They will have a CAA medical anyway at this stage but CAA refuse to convert if foreign medical exoired). At the moment it is easy for FAA ppls to get a bfr for the equivalent of faa rating renewal, or an FAA class 3, in the UK, but for other countries' licences, it is often be a Draconian brick wall , and even if they comply, they are often forced to get their original licence back fully valid but never to be used again for flying. Dreadful gold plate..
2- for any icao ppl, allow conversion by ato/dto assessment and recommendation (and pass) initial skills test (and exams) even if pilot has fewer than 100 hours. We seem to welcome "just good enough" foreign ppls with 100 hours initial training but refuse to have anything to do with the talented "pass in minimum hours" ones.
User avatar
By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1849195
Genghis the Engineer wrote:If that has changed, it's done so in the last 6 months, but good. When I was sorting myself out last year to convert my FAA IR to an EASA+UK IR, the only way I could choose my examiner seemed to be by doing it in Spain.

If I was misadvised, ah well, I had a thoroughly enjoyable time in Jerez.

G


Are there even any CAA staff examiners these days? I thought it was all designated examiners.

Ian
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By IMCR
#1849201
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
IMCR wrote:Who is it that’s wants to be rid of arrangements that arose well before EASA and never resulted in any actual harm
/quote]

If you are referring to flying on FAA tickets, some might argue they did. Sala's family, AOC holders.

IMCR wrote:why shouldn’t we encourage overseas pilots with whom we are friends to enjoy our airspace


It doesn't apply to visitors - just residents.

IMCR wrote:EASA told us we didn’t want the IMCr, fortunately the pilots told the CAA oh yes we do.


EASA might argue that they have made obtaining an IR easier, and indeed they have.

The IMC was never more than a chocolate fireguard, a vehicle for flying schools to flog another 20 hours of flight training which did not supply pilots with anything usable*






*I know it was 15 hours plus test and that every forumite with an IMC rating uses it to fly hundreds of hours in hard IMC in top specced IR hot ships, flying single needle approaches in hostile terrain with MSAs of at least 10,000ft.

:D


FlynDutch

We are going to have to disagree. I think you are just being cynical and not recognising events at the time. The IMCr was the trigger for the IRR. In reality what would have happened is there would be no intermediary step, and the IR light would have been as long in the gestation as it proved to be. It is still unsatisfactory compared with the FAA IR, the cumbersome components of the theoretical elements still prove it is unfit for purpose for the vast majority of GA pilots who arent bent on a full blown commercial occupation.

Please do justify why well over 50% of pure GA pilots in the States currently hold an IR and remind us what that number is in Euroland and or the UK?
User avatar
By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849209
Yes, the funding helps a lot, as does the attitude.


I suspect "attitude" works both ways. Where our ancestors in the GA community have been apathetic with representation and a lack of donations, leaving local communities, politicians and the government uninformed, we are consequently left battling silly issues today.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849214
Marvin wrote:@2Donkeys
Hope this helps somebody. I am feeling like a safer pilot already even though I can't imagine what the safety case is for all of this. Regulatory Impact Assessment Anybody


Fall out from accident involving an FAA registered aircraft ferrying a footballer perhaps?


Not at all. The wheels were set in motion long before January 2019.
Flyin'Dutch', 2Donkeys liked this
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849245
2Donkeys wrote:
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
Under EASA you could choose your examiner.

Under UK CAA you have never had that privilege, even when you were in EASA, although it's well known that you can game the system. It's CAA staff examiners (at considerable cost) or nothing. A few people used to deliberately organise their EASA I-IRTs outside of the UK for just that reason.

G


That runs counter to the advice I received from the CAA yesterday and from my anticipated IRE. The fact that contrary advice is floating around doesn't surprise me at all though.

The primary reason keeping me in the FAA system for all these years to the exclusion of CAA/JAA/EASA was the complete mess and uncertainty associated with our domestic system.


Apols for thread drift: @2Donkeys I have sent you a PM as I can't find your email address.
Peter
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849263
IMCR wrote:Please do justify why well over 50% of pure GA pilots in the States currently hold an IR and remind us what that number is in Euroland and or the UK?


I don't have to justify why there are fewer IR rated PPLs outside the US.

But I can explain to you that the training route is only part of the issue, cost of aviation in general and lack of opportunity of flying in the IFR system, lack of approaches and facilities on arrival are as much of an issue as the flight and test requirements.

In the US you can fly from a well equipped airfield with facilities (and an approach) to another where there will be an FBO with a car for local transport.

In the UK you can fly from a strip with a portacabin to another, no facilities or to a regional airport with an approach and landing and handling fee to match. The situation in Europe is very similar.

To keep an IR and IR usable machine on the go requires an awful lot of time and money, too much QED by the small numbers who can be bothered.

We all thought that making Permit machines IMC/IFR capable would unleash hordes of IFR fliers, it didn't; nor did abolishing licensing requirements increase training opportunities at a host or places, or the advent of the LAPL swell recreational pilot numbers.

I call that realism, not cynicism.
By IMCR
#1849267
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
IMCR wrote:Please do justify why well over 50% of pure GA pilots in the States currently hold an IR and remind us what that number is in Euroland and or the UK?


I don't have to justify why there are fewer IR rated PPLs outside the US.

But I can explain to you that the training route is only part of the issue, cost of aviation in general and lack of opportunity of flying in the IFR system, lack of approaches and facilities on arrival are as much of an issue as the flight and test requirements.

In the US you can fly from a well equipped airfield with facilities (and an approach) to another where there will be an FBO with a car for local transport.

In the UK you can fly from a strip with a portacabin to another, no facilities or to a regional airport with an approach and landing and handling fee to match. The situation in Europe is very similar.

To keep an IR and IR usable machine on the go requires an awful lot of time and money, too much QED by the small numbers who can be bothered.

We all thought that making Permit machines IMC/IFR capable would unleash hordes of IFR fliers, it didn't; nor did abolishing licensing requirements increase training opportunities at a host or places, or the advent of the LAPL swell recreational pilot numbers.

I call that realism, not cynicism.


Chicken and egg my friend. Everytime you make GA more difficult you end up with a few more than cant be bothered. Possibly more so than ever today, where I suspect pilots are less willing to put up with all the nonesense. You lean more and more to simple aircraft than are operated out of strips.

However maybe you are right GA is a dieing sport? I worry this is the simple truth as well.

but I also think the constant uncertainty doesnt help. Pilots dont like constant rule changes. Here we go, here we have another one.

I always like reading your POV, which of us is closer to the mark I really have no idea.
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1849270
@IMCR

IMO the IR was unachievable in the past, on purpose, as the powers that were didn't want puddle jumpers clogging up the airways and airports, the IR was seen as the right of passage to commercial flying. AOPA negotiated the IMC rating, it might have been the best, or even only thing possible but for me it has always had a tinge of 'soma for the plebs' about it.

I don't think that recreational flying is a dying activity, maybe flying SEPs for a 100 quid burger is less popular but there is clearly a lot of interest in a number of sectors, parachuting, paragliding, parameter, microlighting, gyrocopter flying, helicopter flying to name but a few.

IFR flying for going places for fun has become a rare pastime for some truly dedicated people who have the drive, money and time to do it. Regulation and cost have contributed to that, but equally pressures on free time, cost of airline travel and ageing of the pilot population are just as, if not more important.

Just thinking back to the early naughties of our group of Flying Pirates I think there is only one still doing IFR traveling and even that is at a very different level than way back in the day. The rest have either given up flying altogether, for a number of reasons, or are just happy to do some trips local and further away as time allows.

I personally found that there was always something else that limited one's despatch rate - lack of de-icing, lack of a second engine, lack of currency, weather, time and the notion that with a RYR you could get to the destination quicker, more reliable and a whole lot cheaper than by GA even if traveling in something as nice as a Cirrus SR22. With jobs and families to satisfy reliability becomes an important factor.
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