Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1847095
The terms Airmanship and Safety aren't easy to define succinctly, and definitely not easy to understand if you are a new student.

Maybe TEM introduces a structured way of thinking about things that accessible to all?

Ian
Josh, MattL, Wide-Body liked this
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By Rob P
#1847102
Could be. It's just to me it just appeared to be tacking yet another TLA onto a simple concept to make it seem more scientific.

Rob P
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1847103
“Look both ways before crossing the road, stay safe”

We grow up with the words safe, and safety.
We understand these from the beginning, or we get hurt, and then we have a full understanding!

“Now son/daughter/whatever remember Threat and Error Management as you go to school...”

Airmanship includes Courtesy....

Certainly TEM is worth knowing, but it needs a greater degree of understanding than the simple word safety which we used in everything else we have done in our lives.
Businesses in Thailand have “Safety First” signs displayed in clear positions in English. Even non English speaking Thais understand this.
There are no “TEM First” signs.

Regardless of what terminology we use, we must ensure participants in aviation stay safe, and reduce accidents.
There should be no confusion.
Shoestring Flyer, JAFO, Rob P and 2 others liked this
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By MattL
#1847106
Shoestring Flyer wrote:TEM, Just Culture, Blue sky thinking etc. is just consultancy company created jargonistic bolloeux to make the person spouting this sort of rubbish seem somehow superior and clever! :evil:


I’ve seen the same speech, almost word for word, from leaders which has destroyed years worth of work towards an open and honest culture in one day. The old and bold may all laugh along, but you’ll have a bunch of students and the inexperienced in your club room/bar that all go away resolving to keep their heads down, mouth shut and afraid to ask and engage... :(
G-BLEW, Wide-Body, shortwing and 1 others liked this
#1847107
MattL wrote:
Shoestring Flyer wrote:TEM, Just Culture, Blue sky thinking etc. is just consultancy company created jargonistic bolloeux to make the person spouting this sort of rubbish seem somehow superior and clever! :evil:


I’ve seen the same speech, almost word for word, from leaders which has destroyed years worth of work towards an open and honest culture in one day. The old and bold may all laugh along, but you’ll have a bunch of students and the inexperienced in your club room/bar that all go away resolving to keep their heads down, mouth shut and afraid to ask and engage... :(


I am ashamed to say I used this jargonistic stuff myself as a Management Consultant for the last 25years of my working life and I now realise it just causes unnecessary confusion eventually requiring convoluted explanations creating very fuddled thinking and understanding in your audience!
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By Rob P
#1847112
MattL wrote:I’ve seen the same speech, almost word for word, from leaders which has destroyed years worth of work towards an open and honest culture in one day.


So you are suggesting the use of plain English intimidates students whereas management speak sets them on the road to the sunlit uplands of openness and honesty? Really?

I can't see it myself, but undoubtedly you know better than I.

Rob P
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1847115
MattL wrote:
Shoestring Flyer wrote:TEM, Just Culture, Blue sky thinking etc. is just consultancy company created jargonistic bolloeux to make the person spouting this sort of rubbish seem somehow superior and clever! :evil:


I’ve seen the same speech, almost word for word, from leaders which has destroyed years worth of work towards an open and honest culture in one day. The old and bold may all laugh along, but you’ll have a bunch of students and the inexperienced in your club room/bar that all go away resolving to keep their heads down, mouth shut and afraid to ask and engage... :(


Im sorry, but I totally disagree. In the last 20 odd years there has been a trend to make very simple safety concepts much more complicated than they need to be. This isnt just something that has happened in aviation, but in many other industries. I would say that the use of multiple TLAs, jargon and buzzwords is far more likely to have a student confused and keep their head down, mouth shut and afraid to ask for fear of looking stupid. I have been in many "safety" presentations where you look around and notice peoples eyes glazing over with all the "lingo". Where-as if you keep things simple and explain things in terms and words they understand from everyday life, they go away better prepared and able to ask questions, because they dont need to learn a whole bunch of jargon first.

Regards, SD..
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By JAFO
#1847128
What is often not realised when training someone or introducing them to a new subject is the way that the human brain (and, for all I know, lots of other brains, too) takes on board new information.

The very easiest way for a brain to do this is to link it to something it already knows. Compare, contrast and then understand. If you talk to people in jargon and buzzwords you are just making that more difficult to do.
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By As I CFIT
#1847130
As much as I dislike buzzwords and the introduction of anything that the over-zealous will try to beat you over the head with, I think that TEM is valuable when it's applied well.

TEM is really just thinking ahead, being proactive and flying defensively in order to not end up with egg on your face. It's neither new nor scientific but it does require awareness and a willingness to not settle for doing things merely by habit.

I recently saw a Cessna 150 with two-up performing a take-off using flaps from a 1000+m tarmac runway. They could have been practising a short-field take-off but I suspect that the situation just wasn't given much thought, given that the aircraft is based at a grass airfield where flapped take-offs are the norm.

It's unlikely that using flaps (arguably) unnecessarily is going to cause you a problem in this specific situation. Your rate of climb will be down but probably not with any consequence. You probably won't forget to retract them. The increased workload of retracting them probably won't cause you to overlook something else, etc. The problem is that you've accepted a casual and possibly lazy attitude towards flying whereby you have your comfortable yet inflexible way of doing things and fly reactively - allowing situations to partially develop before taking action rather than giving something a bit of thought beforehand and avoiding the hassle altogether.
Josh liked this
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1847132
Unfortunately flying is full of mnemonics and not all of them are that helpful. BUMPFICHH, FREDA and HASELL/HELL seem to stick ok, but SSSSSS (is it six or seven?) for landing in a field or CBSIFTBC (surely a checklist is preferable?) just create brain-fog out invite missing something important.
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By Josh
#1847133
G-BLEW wrote:The terms Airmanship and Safety aren't easy to define succinctly, and definitely not easy to understand if you are a new student.

Maybe TEM introduces a structured way of thinking about things that accessible to all?

Ian


This is absolutely spot on. I am subject to a fair portion of bullshit bingo in the day job, but Threat and Error Management isn’t. It’s a very effective way of teaching people to identify “what’s going to get me today?” and to fend off complacency.

If we were to have this chat over a beer or in a clubhouse, with no PowerPoints or regulatory publications I think everyone would agree.
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By MattL
#1847138
Rob P wrote:
MattL wrote:I’ve seen the same speech, almost word for word, from leaders which has destroyed years worth of work towards an open and honest culture in one day.


So you are suggesting the use of plain English intimidates students whereas management speak sets them on the road to the sunlit uplands of openness and honesty? Really?

I can't see it myself, but undoubtedly you know better than I.

Rob P


So I say to a student, totally new to aviation:

“Rob, today we are going to look at some things that could be a threat to safety on our flight today - like the fact there’s lots of gliders up as it’s a nice thermal day. What could do we do to mitigate against that threat?”

As opposed to old school

“Rob we need to display airmanship at all times”

Can’t see the issue myself, the first way is a lot clearer to students I think. It’s just helping people structure their thinking.

Language and concepts move on, I’m reluctant to junk things just because they weren’t around when I learnt to fly 30 odd years ago.
Edward Bellamy liked this
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By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1847140
Rob P wrote:So you are suggesting the use of plain English intimidates students whereas management speak sets them on the road to the sunlit uplands of openness and honesty? Really?


How about suggesting that plain English?

Ian
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1847144
MattL wrote:“Rob we need to display airmanship at all times”


"Rob, we need to apply the principles of TEM at all times"

:roll:

MattL wrote:“Rob, today we are going to look at some things that could be a threat to safety on our flight today - like the fact there’s lots of gliders up as it’s a nice thermal day. What could do we do to mitigate against that threat?”


Rob, today, lets look at some things that might affect the safety of our flight today, like the fact thats its a nice day for thermals. This means that there may be quite a few gliders in the air, so what might we be able to do to avoid them?

:thumleft:
TopCat, Iceman, flybymike and 1 others liked this
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