Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Full Metal Jackass
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846550
marioair wrote:So how many pages will now discuss whether the vector diagram showed that there was obscuration of the sky echo signal and whether PilotAware would have worked better? :D :D


The reality is that both aircraft were ADS-B equipped. In addition to this, the Cirrus was an SR22 G5 from 2016; it was equipped with the Garmin Perspective avionics and had ADS-B in traffic advisories on the PFD so it would have been aware, both aurally and by visual clues.

Unfortunately, some pilots have said that they inhibit warnings when in the pattern hence I'm wondering whether the Cirrus pilot did the same - turned off traffic reports because they would interfere with their concentration? All he needed to do was be on the traffic page and press the mute button......
By IMCR
#1846552
It could well have been, I think a fair few pilots do, but, also, as I mentioned earlier I am not sure in the close proximity of the circuit especially with one on final and one on base (probably positioning inside the longer final) pilots are necessarily thinking about responding to a traffic alert when they think the tower is probably monitoring the traffic as well. Seems a worry the Cirrus had turned base so as to be on a collision course with the Metro on (presumably) a more extended final.
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846554
They were on parallel runway approaches, 17L and 17R. The Cirrus appears to have overshot the turn onto final for 17R (right hand pattern) and gone straight into the side of the Metroliner on long final for 17L.

Image

Iceman 8)
By IMCR
#1846557
Iceman is yours in response to my post. This is also my understanding from what has been written. In other words the Metroliner on long final, the Cirrus on "short" base about to turn final, so as to position parallel, but over shoots, and never makes the turn onto final, the Cirrus having always positioned inside the Metroliner. (not sure if you are suggesting something different or I havent got my brain aound it).
Last edited by IMCR on Wed May 12, 2021 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846558
@IMCR, I got the impression from your post, possibly mistakenly, that you were implying that they were on final to the same runway.

Iceman 8)
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By gaznav
#1846560
I normally get loads of alerts from FLARMs left on by gliders on the ground when I’m coming in to land. I have resisted the temptation to mute the warnings from SkyEcho/SkyDemon ;and one day I was really pleased I didn’t when during a touch and go it directed my sight towards a motorglider calling downwind as I turned x-wind to downwind. I hadn’t seen him until that warning.

EC is often it’s most useful in the circuit, and around airfields, where many of these rare mid airs occur. That’s not that surprising really seeing as we are all trying to land on the same bit of ground! So, just live with the annoying warnings, and if you’re a glider pilot then please be courteous and turn the FLARM off when you park up on the grid! :thumright:
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By Rob L
#1846563
gaznav wrote:I normally get loads of alerts from FLARMs left on by gliders on the ground when I’m coming in to land. I have resisted the temptation to mute the warnings from SkyEcho/SkyDemon ;and one day I was really pleased I didn’t when during a touch and go it directed my sight towards a motorglider calling downwind as I turned x-wind to downwind. I hadn’t seen him until that warning.

EC is often it’s most useful in the circuit, and around airfields, where many of these rare mid airs occur. That’s not that surprising really seeing as we are all trying to land on the same bit of ground! So, just live with the annoying warnings, and if you’re a glider pilot then please be courteous and turn the FLARM off when you park up on the grid! :thumright:


Gaznav: Denver is similar to Los Angeles LAX or New York JFK. I doubt they have little gliders with Flarm or SkyEcho in the circuit.
By IMCR
#1846566
gaznav wrote:I normally get loads of alerts from FLARMs left on by gliders on the ground when I’m coming in to land. I have resisted the temptation to mute the warnings from SkyEcho/SkyDemon ;and one day I was really pleased I didn’t when during a touch and go it directed my sight towards a motorglider calling downwind as I turned x-wind to downwind. I hadn’t seen him until that warning.

EC is often it’s most useful in the circuit, and around airfields, where many of these rare mid airs occur. That’s not that surprising really seeing as we are all trying to land on the same bit of ground! So, just live with the annoying warnings, and if you’re a glider pilot then please be courteous and turn the FLARM off when you park up on the grid! :thumright:


Flarm is one thing, but I agree with Gaznaz, it is well worth resisting the temptation there is some useful information and warnings to be had. It has proved invalueable at L2K on more than one occasion. :D

Never the less, this may be just "one of those events". I suppose no one expected an aircraft to fly from base straight through the final approach of another airline having turned base inside his approach track with the instruction to turn final before reaching his approach track. The difference between turning final and continuing base to collide would have been no time at all, and probably almost entirely down to the Cirrus to spot the other traffic.

If nothing else, and to state the obvious, it does demonstrate how incredibly dangereous it is to allow an aircraft to turn base inside any other aircraft such that their turn final will come around the point they come together. Presumably as it is this would have left both aircraft steaming down final at the same time and about parallel as I ma guessing their approach speeds would also not be that dissimiliar. Far to early to apportion blame, but the controller may hve issues with positioning, and might have wished he had asked to extend downwind for spacing.
Last edited by IMCR on Wed May 12, 2021 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Ibra
#1846567
It would be interesting to know how the SR22 was doing his visual approach? and if he was IFR or VFR?

Some would call for it to get shortcut on sunny IFR but they will still have their eyes inside cockpit on instruments & navigator without visually spotting the runway axis or the other traffic, it's easy to say I will join visual and start fiddling with Tablet or GPS to find the runway...

Both aircrafts would probably had lookout, TCAS, ADSB, ATC Radar, same freqs...so pretty inexplicable??!!
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By Josh
#1846569
The SR22 was in the visual circuit, not on a visual approach. Lining up on the incorrect parallel runway is pretty bad juju and if your SA is low enough for you to be doing so and miss the traffic called to you by ATC I’m not sure any electronic aid will help.

I doubt there were any advisories either in this case (making assumptions about height agl given the positions of the collision) - TCAS has all sorts of sensible inhibitions that kick in as you approach the ground. On some specific parallel approach procedures (not this one) US operators are authorised to disable TCAS manoeuvre commands. Also not uncommon for light GA and heavy metal to be separated legally by US standards but close enough to set off a TCAS RA.
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By Rob L
#1846571
Josh wrote:.... SA ....

Do you mean Situational Awareness or Safety Altitude? If one or other (or other!) why not say so, please. If not, then please explain.

Folk who don't understand abbreviations (like me) might misunderstand.

Rob
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By Full Metal Jackass
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846576
Josh wrote:The SR22 was in the visual circuit, not on a visual approach. Lining up on the incorrect parallel runway is pretty bad juju and if your SA is low enough for you to be doing so and miss the traffic called to you by ATC I’m not sure any electronic aid will help.

I doubt there were any advisories either in this case (making assumptions about height agl given the positions of the collision) - TCAS has all sorts of sensible inhibitions that kick in as you approach the ground. On some specific parallel approach procedures (not this one) US operators are authorised to disable TCAS manoeuvre commands. Also not uncommon for light GA and heavy metal to be separated legally by US standards but close enough to set off a TCAS RA.


They were 3 nautical miles away from the threshold so I'd be surprised about the warnings being inhibited. In any case, I recall a situation many a moon ago where I received a stern bollocking by the controller at a towered airport because I was holding short of a runway, waiting for a Lufthansa Jet to land and had already switched my transponder to ALT mode - the pilot of the Lufthansa Jet called out "TCAS RA" and was going to go around but overrode it as he could see I was the source of the conflict holding short......

Since then the TXP is always the last thing I action - switch to ALT mode - before I advance the throttle.....

edited to add: or the last thing I forget to turn on, in case I believe I'm in peril of infringing CAS :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

For the avoidance of doubt: that last bit in small writing is a joke.....
Last edited by Full Metal Jackass on Wed May 12, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By IMCR
#1846577
Most modern transponders now automatically apply ground mode.

I dont think pretty much any commercial SOPS are to put the txp to standby on approach. In GA you will frequently get ground alerts but they dont default to stanby and pilots dont turn them to standyby.
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