Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846409
Sorry for being a bit vague / "theoretical" with my original question - situation, as often, is a bit sensitive.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a nice black and white answer that applies to my situation - ach well.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846413
I think there is a black and white answer in the posts; it naffs people off when co-owners allow others to fly the aeroplane in which the then P1 has no ownership stake.

This has been a point of discussion in several threads.

I certainly remember a few of them which were along the lines that non-owners were logging P1 time in an aeroplane they had no share in.

Subsequently the facilitating co-owners were chucked out of the syndicate.

I certainly would follow the same route if the scenario arose in a syndicate I was a partner in, not because any laws might have been broken or insurance cover lost; no, 'just' because there is a breach of trust. Simple.

Nobody is going to have a wobble if a pilot-friend came along and took control during the flight for a bit, to have a go. But to act as PIC - not.
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#1846781
An earlier poster has mentioned the offence of 'taking without consent', section 12 of the Theft Act 1968. However he wrongly says it applies only to cars - it covers any form of conveyance 'whether by land water or air' and so would include a light aircraft..

So if the question is 'flying without owner permission' as the title indicates, the answer seems pretty straightforward.
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By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846794
jev_flyer wrote:An earlier poster has mentioned the offence of 'taking without consent', section 12 of the Theft Act 1968. However he wrongly says it applies only to cars - it covers any form of conveyance 'whether by land water or air' and so would include a light aircraft..

So if the question is 'flying without owner permission' as the title indicates, the answer seems pretty straightforward.

If only that applied to Scotland...

The equivalent provision in Scotland is under section 178 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 which only specifies “motor vehicle”

"Motor Vehicle"means, subject to section 20 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 (which makes special provision about invalid carriages, within the meaning of that Act), a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads
By Rallye
#1846799
Black or White
If a owner allow you to fly his airplane,a minimum of respect is to fly his airplane in the way he authorize you.
If he allow you,he don't automatically authorize your friends,wife,etc... even not an instructor to fly.
So you respect the law and what the owner authorize you,it is easy.
By David Potts
#1847066
riverrock wrote:On cars, there is a specific crime to take & drive without consent (separate to theft) which is pretty much equivalent to my question. That is the legal backing behind hire cars, beyond the civil matter of what you sign when you pick it up. Also with hire cars, insurance is named driver.

So it sounds like, to me, this is really a civil matter coming down to group rules (making it pretty hard for a group to enforce if one of the members says to their friend they can log P1 as they go on their travels).

Sounds like if I wandered down the line of aircraft at our club, filled a different group's aircraft with fuel, flew it for an hour (leaving a bit of fuel to cover the value of engine degradation etc), filled in the paperwork, put it back, I wouldn't actually have broken any laws.
Not that I recommend that either...


This legislation would apply in these circumstances, it relates to a conveyance not just a motor vehicle.
#1847153
riverrock wrote:
David Potts wrote:This legislation would apply in these circumstances, it relates to a conveyance not just a motor vehicle.

See viewtopic.php?p=1846794#p1846794 - as I say - not in Scotland.


Apologies, didn't see that. I'm not au fait with Scottish law but potentially fraud offences if they are similar to England and Wales, making a gain or exposing someone to a loss through false representation.