Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845546
Rob P wrote:given 'Overhead' is a very fleeting instant, by the time the pilot gets to the second and third words they are actually descending on the dead side


Yeah, but...

Overhead isnt entering the ATZ, it is somewhere over the actual aerodrome and similarly if you are Late Downwind, that isnt Downwind, neither is 4 miles from the threshold "final"... I agree with @PaulSS here in that stating your position truthfully and accurately is really important for situational awareness of everyone.

Regards, SD..
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By Rob P
#1845556
And I have never said otherwise. I assume at the moment someone says 'Overhead' they are er.. overhead.

Yes I know that's optimistic, but, benefit of the doubt and all that. :D

Rob P
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By nallen
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845558
skydriller wrote:stating your position truthfully and accurately is really important for situational awareness of everyone.


I certainly can't argue with that, but the theory is often severely hampered by the reality of people's variable interpretation of where downwind lies relative to the runway -- could be half a mile, could be a mile, could be in another county.
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By PaulSS
#1845559
the theory is often severely hampered by the reality of people's variable interpretation of where downwind lies relative to the runway -- could be half a mile, could be a mile, could be in another county.


There's no need for interpretation; it's abeam the upwind threshold. No need for estimation of distances, it's when the upwind threshold lies off your left or right shoulder/wing.

How far out that is e.g. bomber circuits, and what I believe you're driving at, certainly does influence where the aircraft will lie but the position relative to the runway is defined and certainly is not when just about to turn base etc.
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By gaznav
#1845693
I’ve seen bad circuit position reporting over the past 32 years as a private pilot, a military aviator/instructor and an air ground radio operator. People calling final on one runway, when they are final on another; people calling downwind in the wrong circuit pattern/direction; people calling overhead when they have just entered the ATZ; people calling initial too far out; calling long final (where exactly is that?); confusion between civ/mil traffic as to where final is; downwind calls abeam the upwind threshold (correct), downwind calls abeam the centre point (incorrect - ‘late downwind’ would be better); left base calls instead or right (and vice-versa); etc...

This is the best thing about the emergence of lightweight GPS-position tagged EC, in that between aircraft you can sometimes resolve the confusion when there isn’t someone on the ground with a radio at your airfield who can. This is also true when coupled to a ground station and a suitably qualified individual on a radio - that is why Airspace4All have been putting so much effort into the ADS-B Airfield Trials. That is also the good thing about the recently discussed Turweston AIRPROX in that a simple call of unannounced traffic in/near the circuit can help (it might not stop a mid air or AIRPROX, but it gives the Aircrew the information they need to help prevent one).

As for the discussion on displaying or not displaying identity. Recently recovering to an airfield at a well known airfield I called overhead a well known racing circuit as I commenced joining the circuit. Straight after a Vans called overhead too - looking out nothing is seen - looking in, there is the aircraft with that callsign and it shows 2-3nm SE of me (away from the real overhead). So, all is good and no wonder I can’t see them! On turning final, I can see that Vans is now relatively close behind, so I know the thing to do is to get off the runway on landing so that they don’t have to go around. Without the EC, I would be estimating completely on radio calls, but now I have an extra aid for my situational awareness. So displaying callsigns is a good thing.

This is the thing about GPS-position tagged EC - it is all about situational awareness - it may prevent a MAC, it may prevent an AIRPROX or it may just make your flight a little less fraught by giving you extra information for everyone to operate around each other a little more easily and courteously. But at the speeds we fly, we don’t need crazy long range detection either - 8-10nm is fine (2-3 mins away at average GA head on closure speeds). That’s enough to put 1,000ft+ of height separation in, or to alter track to avoid horizontally. There would be fewer ‘sorry mate I didn’t see you’ as long as we all have an EC system that emits to each other that we can also receive - and there lay the real problem, making sure we all emit a common standard (which is what is really needed).
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845698
downwind calls abeam the centre point (incorrect - ‘late downwind’ would be better); downwind calls abeam the centre point (incorrect - ‘late downwind’ would be better);

No - late downwind is another defined call and it is when beyond the end of the runway, if you have not been able to get your call in at the correct point, maybe because of other rt traffic then it should still be “downwind” you could possibly modify it if you need to because of other circuit traffic, either “downwind, late call” or “ downwind - ahead of G-xx”
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845705
Ibra wrote:If you know the runway in use, why one can't just join downwind there is plenty of space, about 4nm length, you can't hit someone even if you want to do it on purpose...


A 4nm downwind? Maybe at Cardiff! :D

The airfield circumference, the "roundabout" for the OHJ is longer than the downwind, plus you're not mixing with any training traffic doing circuits at that point, so you're much less likely to bump into other traffic.

TopCat wrote:Not as bad as calling "overhead" (deadside or otherwise) when it's simply a complete lie, and they're still half a mile away or more.

Top tip: 'overhead' does not mean 'inside the ATZ'.


Half a mile from what? "Overhead" in terms of the overhead join means somewhere around the circumference of the airfield. If the airfield is a mile across, this is necessarily going to be half a mile from the centre point.

PaulSS wrote:"Overhead" is overhead, nowhere else.


Are you sure? What's your definition of overhead?

PaulSS wrote:"Dead side, descending" is descending on the dead side. No room for guessing or assuming.


Are you sure they're going for the same runway as you? :D

PaulSS wrote:There's no need for interpretation; it's abeam the upwind threshold.


This is just where it's recommended to make the call. I'm with foxmoth, downwind can be anywhere along the downwind up to the point of "late downwind". Otherwise if you miss the call in the exact position where you're supposed to call due to the radio being occupied or workload, what do you do then, skip it? Make up your own call such as "abeam the Toyota dealer"?

If you're flying in the US and join 45 degrees to the downwind, mid-field, where would you call downwind, if at all?
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By Rob P
#1845706
Paul_Sengupta wrote: "Overhead" in terms of the overhead join means somewhere around the circumference of the airfield. If the airfield is a mile across, this is necessarily going to be half a mile from the centre point.


No! No! No!

It's a matter of pride not to call "Overhead" until a threshold has disappeared under the wing root. (High-wing flyers, may substitute a wheel)

Rob P
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845711
Rob P wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote: "Overhead" in terms of the overhead join means somewhere around the circumference of the airfield. If the airfield is a mile across, this is necessarily going to be half a mile from the centre point.


No! No! No!

It's a matter of pride not to call "Overhead" until a threshold has disappeared under the wing root.

And geometry.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845713
Paul_Sengupta wrote:The airfield circumference, the "roundabout" for the OHJ...

Eh???

You presumably do know that a correctly flown OHJ crosses to the deadside over the downwind numbers, and then goes crosswind over the upwind ones?
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By gaznav
#1845716
@foxmoth

Agreed, although it is not quite ‘cut and dry’ as there is a grey area in CAP413 where there is a distinct gap between the “downwind” point abeam the upwind threshold and the “late downwind” at the into wind threshold and beyond. Personally, if I miss that abeam the upwind threshold “downwind” call then I just go for “late downwind” as I am either at it or rapidly approaching it :thumleft:

Image

Maybe one for the CAA to clear up in a future revision of CAP413, to remove that great area (confusingly shown by me in red :lol: )?
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845717
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
TopCat wrote:Not as bad as calling "overhead" (deadside or otherwise) when it's simply a complete lie, and they're still half a mile away or more.

Top tip: 'overhead' does not mean 'inside the ATZ'.


Half a mile from what? "Overhead" in terms of the overhead join means somewhere around the circumference of the airfield. If the airfield is a mile across, this is necessarily going to be half a mile from the centre point.

Half a mile - or more - from the airfield perimeter. Outside it, not inside it.

That is, not overhead the airfield.

I don't really understand why there seems to be confusion about what 'overhead' means. If you're overhead the airfield, then you are vertically above some part of the airfield.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845719
TopCat wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:The airfield circumference, the "roundabout" for the OHJ...

Eh???

You presumably do know that a correctly flown OHJ crosses to the deadside over the downwind numbers, and then goes crosswind over the upwind ones?


Er, quite...

TopCat wrote:Half a mile - or more - from the airfield perimeter. Outside it, not inside it.


Ah, yes!

TopCat wrote:I don't really understand why there seems to be confusion about what 'overhead' means. If you're overhead the airfield, then you are vertically above some part of the airfield.


Some people think it has to mean directly overhead the centre of the airfield.
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By Rob P
#1845725
TopCat wrote:You presumably do know that a correctly flown OHJ crosses to the deadside over the downwind numbers, and then goes crosswind over the upwind ones?


Not according to The Skyway Code

Maintain 2000ft above aerodrome
height (or as specified by the
aerodrome) and observe windsock
and traffic. Keep aerodrome suitable
distance on the left of the aircraft
.


The idea being that you should be able to view the threshold, not something you can do if flying directly over it.

In typical CAA fashion, it makes no mention of what is expected for a RH circuit.

Rob P
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845737
Rob P wrote:
TopCat wrote:You presumably do know that a correctly flown OHJ crosses to the deadside over the downwind numbers, and then goes crosswind over the upwind ones?


Not according to The Skyway Code

Maintain 2000ft above aerodrome
height (or as specified by the
aerodrome) and observe windsock
and traffic. Keep aerodrome suitable
distance on the left of the aircraft
.


The idea being that you should be able to view the threshold, not something you can do if flying directly over it.


Gawd. Has that guidance changed? I've got an oldish printed Skyway Code somewhere but I can't find it.

But oh dear. 'Suitable' is so subjective that here we have an official document legitimising approaching the overhead any damn way you please. 100 yards downwind of the downwind numbers is 'suitable'. Half a mile, or more (which I frequently see) is not.

But even that guide is quite specific about where to go crosswind (Ok, threshold, not numbers). It's at the upwind end of the runway, not at the normal upwind/crosswind circuit corner.