Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By PaulSS
#1845489
I'm off on a bit of a tangent but it is somewhat related to avoiding collisions in the circuit area :D

In addition to what is already being discussed, I would like to see more pilots and, in particular, instructors of student pilots, doing a tiny bit of revision and reminding themselves where the various 'radio points' are in the circuit.

Why is the silly fat bloke asking this in a MAC/airprox thread, I hear you ask :?

Well, just the other day I was rejoining the circuit to land at my home base. It was very quiet and only one other aircraft was in the area; a student practicing his circuits. I listened to his calls and decided a downwind join was both expeditious, sensible and entirely practical. I did so and called 'downwind' when directly abeam the upwind threshold. Shortly thereafter the other pilot called 'downwind'. That was a bit of a shock to me as my mental model, based on his previous calls, had him nowhere near downwind. No EC in the other aircraft but I eventually found him very late downwind, in fact he turned onto the base leg about 3 or 4 seconds after I saw him. Clearly his version of 'Downwind' is non-standard and pretty much negates the point of having standard positions, where one can look and expect to see.

Of course, apart from the 'WTF' moment there was no harm done but it does raise the point about claiming you're in a particular place when you're nowhere near it. I absolutely accept the student pilot may have been too busy doing his checks etc to call earlier (in the correct place) and 'communicate' is last on the list but it does seem to me this is a concern that needs a bit of promulgation as I have certainly seen an increase of people who either have no idea where they are or just do not know where they are supposed to make the standard position calls. This latest one just highlighted the point that has become more of a bug-bear as time passes.

Hopefully the 'professional' nature in us will cause some to think, "Hmmm, he might have a bit of a point, so I'll go and have a squint at the books. Should only take 1/2 a glass worth of time". Even more hopefully, some instructors will (a)do the same to make sure they're squeaky clean and (b)make sure their students get the info passed on.

Back to the thread; I would have seen him earlier if he had some sort of EC. I know the machine and I know it doesn't.
User avatar
By Rob L
#1845494
A4 Pacific wrote:Playing Devil’s advocate for a moment. Since the FISO seems to have been the significant input here. Wouldn’t it be more logical to mandate FISOs whenever any circuit is active at any airstrip? Rather than EC?


What a troll! :roll:
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User avatar
By Human Factor
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845495
In addition to what is already being discussed, I would like to see more pilots and, in particular, instructors of student pilots, doing a tiny bit of revision and reminding themselves where the various 'radio points' are in the circuit.


I find that at my home base. To misquote Eric Morecambe, "all the right calls, just not necessarily in the right place".

My favourite is "G-xxxx, overhead, descending dead side".

Great. Which?
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845499
Human Factor wrote:My favourite is "G-xxxx, overhead, descending dead side".

Great. Which?

Not as bad as calling "overhead" (deadside or otherwise) when it's simply a complete lie, and they're still half a mile away or more.

Top tip: 'overhead' does not mean 'inside the ATZ'.
By A4 Pacific
#1845500
Rob L wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:Playing Devil’s advocate for a moment. Since the FISO seems to have been the significant input here. Wouldn’t it be more logical to mandate FISOs whenever any circuit is active at any airstrip? Rather than EC?


What a troll! :roll:


Charming! :roll:
User avatar
By PaulSS
#1845501
Yes, 'overhead' is a particular favourite (although 'downwind' is my real focus for improvement). I was once flying with a bloke who called 'overhead'. When I pointed out, in my 'inimitable' sarcastic way, that the poxy airfield was still 3 miles in front of us and could be seen above the nose of the aircraft, he got most upset. He was even less impressed with my opinion of 'he'd always done it that way' :wink:
User avatar
By Rob L
#1845503
A4 Pacific wrote:
Rob L wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:Playing Devil’s advocate for a moment. Since the FISO seems to have been the significant input here. Wouldn’t it be more logical to mandate FISOs whenever any circuit is active at any airstrip? Rather than EC?


What a troll! :roll:


Charming! :roll:


I fly from a farm strip, A4 Pacific, with only me based there...should I pay someone to provide AFIS there (and the CAA to approve it) ?Get real.
By A4 Pacific
#1845505
I fly from a farm strip, A4 Pacific, with only me based there...should I pay someone to provide AFIS there (and the CAA to approve it) ?Get real.


Did you by any chance NB the ‘devil’s advocate’ comment? Which is generally taken to mean I’m not actually advocating such a thing. In fact quite the opposite. It would be a stupid idea! :roll:

I understand. It’s late. Etc. :lol:
User avatar
By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845519
Mandatory EC is fine for those that can fit it but until there is a unit that does the job properly, cheaply and will be workable in all aircraft then I am against this. For a start I gather the OP is using PA - this does not put out ADSB so HE can’t be seen by those using SE, many aircraft cant use SE because they would need an external aerial, and even on those with it SE often does not seem to get picked up, so there are a number of things that need sorting before this can be mandated!
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User avatar
By Rob P
#1845530
Human Factor wrote:
My favourite is "G-xxxx, overhead, descending dead side".

Great. Which?


I've heard that many times and always taken it to mean

"(I am currently) overhead (the airfield and will now be) descending (on) the deadside."

Rob P
User avatar
By PaulSS
#1845536
I've heard that many times and always taken it to mean


That's really my point, Rob, there should be no room for interpretation or misunderstanding.

"Overhead" is overhead, nowhere else. [Pedant On]Even then, the call should be "Overhead, joining for runway XX"[Pedant Off]

"Dead side, descending" is descending on the dead side. No room for guessing or assuming.

I do realise it's trivia but if people just got these basics right it would be one less thing to have to think about. Tell me you're "Downwind" and I know where to look for you, without having to guess if you're just turning from Crosswind or onto Base.

It costs nothing and directly assists in preventing people coming too close to each other. What's not to like :thumleft:
User avatar
By Rob P
#1845539
I really can't get exercised about this, but given 'Overhead' is a very fleeting instant, by the time the pilot gets to the second and third words they are actually descending on the dead side. (IMO)

Rob P
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User avatar
By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1845541
So if you’re overhead and then immediately begin your descent on the dead side what would your radio call be?

Unlike points in the circuit like “downwind” or even “late downwind”, “descending deadside” covers quite a big bit of sky.

Another fun question for the circuit... In a RH circuit when doing a go around, which side of the runway should you be and why?