Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By kanga
#1844817
Andrew Sinclair wrote:.., I don’t teach it in HF comms courses.

...


delighted to hear that these are still offered :)

[<drift :oops: >

I assume that it is still theoretically possible to seek and, after test, receive CAA licences for Flight Radio Operator (including HF Morse), and for that matter Navigator and Flight Engineer; but I wonder when any of these were last sought, and who is still qualified and authorised to set the tests or Examine for them. Does any Forumite know ? ISTR that when the Gander-Shanwick coordinated transatlantic tracks were borought cloer together - 10nm instead of 40 ? - before the GPS era, airliners using them had to carry Omega or triple INS or a Navigator.

I fairly recently watched a TV documentary about a Ukrainian civil-registered An-124 carrying a satellite from France to Guiane for launch from Kourou. I noted that the flight crew included a full complement of traditional crew members, so presumably Ukrainian CAA still issues such licences</>]
User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1844843
@kanga

I think it was in the late 90's that the CAA removed the separate HF entry on your RT licence, all future RT licences gave automatic approval to use voice HF radio.

With the morse code it was the late 80's early 90's when the CAA stopped using morse code with light signals as part of the commercial pilot morse code exam but carried on with morse audio using VHF, mainly for beacon identification, not sure when they stopped examining morse code using HF, maybe someone else can remember.

For the Ukrainian and Russian aircraft many of them still carry a full complement of crew, i.e. pilot, first officer, navigator/radio operator, flight engineer, weapons officer, and on the cargo aircraft a load master.

Last year we had to carry a Russian navigator on our European registered aircraft because of where we flew too, because no English was spoken and all the airport charts were in Russian.
User avatar
By Andrew Sinclair
#1844854
Lockhaven wrote:@kanga

I think it was in the late 90's that the CAA removed the separate HF entry on your RT licence, all future RT licences gave automatic approval to use voice HF radio.

I am not 100% sure here, as I understand it and happy to received clarification there is a VHF only restriction until the holder or indeed the applicant has passed 'IFR Communications'.

I have never seen that written down and have never received clarification from UK CAA when asked but that was my experience. When my licence was reissued with my IR on it, i.e. having passed the IFR Communications TK exam, the statement "VHF Only" was removed from my licence and that was after the Millenium.

That said nothing in the LOs for IFR Communicatons is HF band specific even 092 06 00 00 General Principles of Propagation and Allocation of Frequencies is VHF although Morse is covered in as much as identifying radio-navigation aids from their morse-code identifiers and SELCAL, TCAS and ACARS, so not sure what the logic is?

When people ask me about HF training, admittedly not very often, I cover the IFR Communications LOs and some HF theory, propagational characteristics, Morse etc...

The last time I used transmitted a Morse message was in South Georgia in the early 90's but that was not in an aviation context, in fact I have only ever used it in an aviation context to ID nav aids.
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User avatar
By MichaelP
#1844857
VHF only restriction until the holder or indeed the applicant has passed 'IFR Communications'.


That’s interesting.
Back in 1974 when I did my practical RT exam I had to do the radio communications for a simulated IFR flight in a DH Dove.
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User avatar
By Iceman
#1844862
There is still specifically an HF theoretical CAA written exam that you can sit in the UK in order to remove the ‘VHF only’ limitation from your radio licence, As I understand it, there are only about three RT examiners in the country who are qualified to present and mark the HF exam.

Iceman 8)
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By TopCat
#1844864
David Wood wrote:and certainly only an idiot would confuse a double-click Ack on Finals as a negative answer to an un-put question. :roll:

Sometimes if the RT is a bit informal already, it's like:

"Squawk Conspicuity, freecall enroute"
"G-XX Wilco, thanks, bye"
"Bye, have a good day"

At which I'll click-click.

Which obviously means "thanks, you have a good day too", and cannot possibly be mistaken for anything else.

Obviously I would never click-click in response to anything requiring 'Roger' or 'Affirm', of if it's Mr Stickler* on at Farnborough (unless I want a lashing :naughty: )

I don't really buy the "controller can't know who it came from" idea, either. Of course that's technically true, but it's going to be pretty obvious who it was, and if it's not being used where something else is required, who cares anyway?

___
*FTAOD, I really like him, as I've said before. He's pulled me up once or twice, fair play and kudos.
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User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1844870
Iceman wrote:There is still specifically an HF theoretical CAA written exam that you can sit in the UK in order to remove the ‘VHF only’ limitation from your radio licence, As I understand it, there are only about three RT examiners in the country who are qualified to present and mark the HF exam.

Iceman 8)


My understanding is that once you had your IR issued that used to cover the HF exam.
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User avatar
By David Wood
#1844875
Andrew Sinclair wrote:
David Wood wrote:It's an Army thing:


Really, never heard that during my time. :oops:



Perhaps it depends slightly on which parts of the Army one frequented...
By Rjk983
#1844877
David Wood wrote:
Andrew Sinclair wrote:
David Wood wrote:It's an Army thing:


Really, never heard that during my time. :oops:



Perhaps it depends slightly on which parts of the Army one frequented...


Careful, those of us in the know will start getting misty eyed at BATCO and SOCs....
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User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1844881
Andrew Sinclair wrote:
Lockhaven wrote:@kanga

I think it was in the late 90's that the CAA removed the separate HF entry on your RT licence, all future RT licences gave automatic approval to use voice HF radio.

I am not 100% sure here, as I understand it and happy to received clarification there is a VHF only restriction until the holder or indeed the applicant has passed 'IFR Communications'.

I have never seen that written down and have never received clarification from UK CAA when asked but that was my experience. When my licence was reissued with my IR on it, i.e. having passed the IFR Communications TK exam, the statement "VHF Only" was removed from my licence and that was after the Millenium.

That said nothing in the LOs for IFR Communicatons is HF band specific even 092 06 00 00 General Principles of Propagation and Allocation of Frequencies is VHF although Morse is covered in as much as identifying radio-navigation aids from their morse-code identifiers and SELCAL, TCAS and ACARS, so not sure what the logic is?

When people ask me about HF training, admittedly not very often, I cover the IFR Communications LOs and some HF theory, propagational characteristics, Morse etc...

The last time I used transmitted a Morse message was in South Georgia in the early 90's but that was not in an aviation context, in fact I have only ever used it in an aviation context to ID nav aids.


@Andrew Sinclair

You are quite correct and I should have added that to my statement,

When my licence was reissued with my IR on it, i.e. having passed the IFR Communications TK exam, the statement "VHF Only" was removed from my licence


Or do a separate HF exam and test to remove the VHF only restriction.
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