Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By chevvron
#1843643
Ibra wrote:I doubt those ATC could do LAHSO tricks with two A320, it's 2.5km×4km, very hard to pick without favouring one guy vs the other !

Witnessed it at Newark during a stopover waiting for a connecting flight in 2000.
A DC9 landed on each of the 04s and both stopped before 29 and held for a landing DC10, LAHSO positions being clearly marked on the airport diagram.
They appeared to be doing ILS to both 04s and visuals to 29 that day.
I remember reading a report in 'Air Clues' (RAF flight safety mag) about an RAF Herc which was cleared for a LAHSO in the USA and they refused to accept the clearance (they hadn't been 'authorised' for such a procedure) so I think they were pulled out of the landing sequence and re-positioned.
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By chevvron
#1843644
Rallye wrote:There are many mistakes and miss interpretations of that phraseology.So the Belgian aeronautical authorities have written an ASIL,that you may find at the following adress.They even speak about a british forum ??For your info and it is in English

https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/defaul ... ze+website

Neither of the exampes quoted would happen in the UK because the controller always has to designate the holding point when instructing an aircraft to remain clear of the runway.
By Ibra
#1843694
chevvron wrote:I remember reading a report in 'Air Clues' (RAF flight safety mag) about an RAF Herc which was cleared for a LAHSO in the USA and they refused to accept the clearance (they hadn't been 'authorised' for such a procedure) so I think they were pulled out of the landing sequence and re-positioned.


Maybe confused by C150 callsign before LAHSO clerance :lol:

Bit disapointed by Hercs crew refusing a bit of fun & challenge, maybe they abused clearances to their limits in the past and now only "authorised" for rate one turn and stable/easy approach when going away from homebase :twisted:
By A4 Pacific
#1843701
Bit disapointed by Hercs crew refusing a bit of fun & challenge, maybe they abused clearances to their limits in the past and now only "authorised" for rate one turn and stable/easy approach when going away from homebase :twisted:


Bearing in mind the topic of this thread is basically runway incursions. In other words people not understanding or doing what they are told.

Perhaps the RAF have come to the same conclusion as BA? That LAHSO presents an unnecessary risk of two aircraft colliding on the same strip of concrete? Too fast to stop, but too slow to fly.

Another difference in the US, even in heavy metal, is that you will fairly frequently be told your are number four (for example) on final, and you are clear to land. Rather more acceptable as the final arbiter of what is ‘safe’ is exclusively retained by those within the subject cockpit.
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By MichaelP
#1843703
“Hold short” instructions are common in Canada, as are “Land and hold short of....”.

At Boundary Bay both runways 25 and 31 are used at the same time.

“Golf India Papa Uniform taxi to runway two five via echo, hold short of two five and contact tower on one one eight decimal one when ready”
“(Golf) India Papa Uniform will hold short two five”

“India Papa Uniform ready for departure”
“India Papa Uniform Negative, (continue to) hold short of runway, traffic on a close base”
“India Papa Uniform, (will) (hold)ing short two five”

“India Papa Uniform with ****** feet available, are you able to land and hold short of runway three one?”

“India Papa Uniform, affirm”

“India Papa Uniform, runway two five, cleared to land, hold short of runway three one.”

India Papa Uniform, cleared to land two five, will hold short (of) three one.”

“Victor November Uniform, traffic landing two five will hold short of your runway, cleared to land/touch and go runway three one.”

Hold short instructions are always read back.
Hold short instructions can be issued for taxyway intersections as well as runways.
In Canada they leave the Charlie out and call the last four, and then the last three registration letters.

In Thailand there’s always a mix up. Hotel Sierra Foxtrot Tango Oscar on first call, then either Hotel Tango Oscar or Fox(trot) Tango Oscar are interchanged, but accents provide enough identification as it does for me in Canada.
All the controllers know my voice in Vancouver and Chiang Mai.

Multiple landing clearances as issued in the USA are not issued in Canada, or Thailand.
Last edited by MichaelP on Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
By Ibra
#1843711
US ATC are pretty aggressive running their flow, 500ft separation, many aircraft on final, parallel and orthogonal runways operations, but in the other hand people fly heavy metal & light sport aircraft in same airspace on own navigation with GPS & TIS/TAS/TCAS & live/link weather with allmost zero "distanciation" in busy Class D airports

I learned that VMC distance from clouds matters a lot around there, one rarely get to see people faces in B737 windows :lol:
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By MichaelP
#1843714
NDB_hold wrote:With LAHSO what happens if one or both of you go around?


I haven’t seen this happen.
I think ATC make allowance for this possibility.
It would be interesting... But both aircraft would have to be on time coincident flight paths. Usually aircraft do not land at precisely the same time. There are seconds and even minutes between the converging traffic.

Also when an aeroplane goes around from an intersecting runway when aircraft are flying circuits on the other, ATC will give instructions to it and/or the other traffic.
“Victor November Uniform going around”
“Victor November Uniform turn right to join right downwind for two five.”
“Overshoot” is sometimes used, but I relate the overshoot to the undershoot (hitting the ground before the runway), overshooting means going off the far end, through the approach lights, through the fence, and into the ditch...

Sometimes when the circuit is busy you might be asked to fly the next downwind on the other side to facilitate arriving traffic.
Another one is being told to extend the leg you are flying.
By Ibra
#1843715
NDB_hold wrote:With LAHSO what happens if one or both of you go around?


Usually you have enough runway in front of you to make full stop or go-around climb & turn to avoid, the scary bit is getting caught in wake turbulence low & slow as you are into wind !

LAHSO TnG will be fun :lol:
By ADIRU777
#1843820
AlanM wrote:
Iceman wrote:And as for the US LAHSO clearance, we won’t go there :D !

Iceman 8)


On our electronic strips it shows the Field 18 text for arrivals in the tower.

Every BA A319/A320 inbound has “LAHSO NOT AVAILABLE” on it. Always makes me smile


It was standard BA procedure flying to the US in my day. It must have got copied onto all BA Stored Flight Plans including shorthaul fleets...
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By ADIRU777
#1843822
MichaelP wrote:
NDB_hold wrote:With LAHSO what happens if one or both of you go around?



“Overshoot” is sometimes used, but I relate the overshoot to the undershoot (hitting the ground before the runway), overshooting means going off the far end, through the approach lights, through the fence, and into the ditch...
.


I thought that was called an 'Overrun'.
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By MichaelP
#1843959
I thought that was called an 'Overrun'.

True too.
I always refer to “go around” as being a controlled manoeuvre. Sometimes we need the dramatic to make a point as to why we use a specific term.
Intensity :D

Dipping down below the minimum descent/decision height to get a visual of the runway you know is there sometimes causes an aircraft to hit the ground... Undershoot? CFIT?
Not the best way to ‘hold short’!
By Ibra
#1843982
Once you are under decision height with clear long runway in front of you and cleared to land you are no longer a "problem", ATC separation for traffic avoidance, IAP designer for terrain clearance, or the gardner who cuts the trees at the end of the runway

LAHSO is no different than overrun on a short runway, ATC can't extend it for you and if PIC is not happy with the length they can ask for a longer runway :thumleft:

I recall once being asked by ATC to taxi for some hold point with clearance to takeoff on 700m in front and 2000m behind, they told me are you happy, I said YES, once lined up and looking at the undecided midday windsock, pylons lines blurried by the heat, I changed my mind and asked to backtrack, on LAHSO landing it's a bit too late for one to change their mind :lol:
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By Iceman
#1844479
Rob L wrote:
Iceman wrote:And as for the US LAHSO clearance, we won’t go there :D !

Iceman 8)


For the benefit of ignorant people like me who had to look it up because you assume everyone knows it; LAHSO means Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)


@Rob L, with the amount of experience that you have of flying in the US, I’m surprised that you were not familiar with the LAHSO clearance. Flying from Titusville (Space Centre Executive) in the 90s, the following document was shoved in my hand and I was told that I must familiarise myself with the procedure.

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/35158/dot_35158_DS1.pdf?

Iceman 8)
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By Rob L
#1844485
Iceman wrote:
Rob L wrote:
Iceman wrote:And as for the US LAHSO clearance, we won’t go there :D !

Iceman 8)


For the benefit of ignorant people like me who had to look it up because you assume everyone knows it; LAHSO means Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)


@Rob L, with the amount of experience that you have of flying in the US, I’m surprised that you were not familiar with the LAHSO clearance. Flying from Titusville (Space Centre Executive) in the 90s, the following document was shoved in my hand and I was told that I must familiarise myself with the procedure.

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/35158/dot_35158_DS1.pdf?

Iceman 8)


I don't fly in to those types of airports in the USA, Iceman. Closest I got to where you were was X21 (Arthur Dunn Air Park, a lot closer to Titusville than you were!) in 2017.

Further: I believe it's impolite to assume folk know abbreviations; I do try my best to use the full expression upon first use as a courtesy to others :wink: .

Rob