Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By IMCR
#1843291
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Iceman wrote:I’d expect any school, be they renting to either a freashly-minted PPL or to a seasoned 25000 hour ATPL SkyGod, to sign out (authorise) every single flight, irrespective of how many flights the person has done with the school. This is no reflection of the capability of the pilot, merely a procedural issue that the school has authorised the flight(s) in their aircraft. If people have a problem with obtaining such an approval then they [i]are[i/] the problem.

Iceman 8)


Maybe I have ever only been hiring from cavalier outfits but other than signing the book there has been, other than when I had my PPL just in my pocket, never been any 'authorising' of any flights.

What sort of bollox is that?

How do they authorise flights which take their aeroplanes away from base?


There is a long history of Clubs authorising flights, rightly or wrongly, together with often convuluted currency and checkouts. Just the way it is, clubs can and do impose their own rules.

Personally I dont think it is entirely such a bad thing. Pilots often progress to a Club enviroment, and take some comfort in a blanket that may well moderate their desire to fly in conditions beyond their ability. It is all very well saying a newly fledged pilot should be able to make their own decisions, but in the early days we have all gone up in conditions that proved rather more lively than we expected.

Many clubs also like a "going foreign" check. Personally I have never seen the point, but for many pilots it is another big step so perhaps not such a bad thing.

After all the best clubs are a group of like minded pilots, looking out for each other and taking their members through the early steps of piloting. Isnt it like so many things, the licence is just a licence to really start learning and a club is a good enviroment for doing so - or can be. I am not one for too many rules, but inevitably it is a fine balance.
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By skydriller
#1843296
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Iceman wrote:I’d expect any school, be they renting to either a freashly-minted PPL or to a seasoned 25000 hour ATPL SkyGod, to sign out (authorise) every single flight, irrespective of how many flights the person has done with the school. This is no reflection of the capability of the pilot, merely a procedural issue that the school has authorised the flight(s) in their aircraft. If people have a problem with obtaining such an approval then they [i]are[i/] the problem.

Iceman 8)


Maybe I have ever only been hiring from cavalier outfits but other than signing the book there has been, other than when I had my PPL just in my pocket, never been any 'authorising' of any flights.

What sort of bollox is that?

How do they authorise flights which take their aeroplanes away from base?


Im trying to remember what happened after I got my PPL and was renting for a year in the UK... The thing is at that time I also travelled with work and did numerous check-outs or dual flights in various aeroplanes in interesting and dodgy places.

Then about a year later I moved to France and joined a real Aeroclub - as in a club by members for members - and after a a couple of hours with an instructor in a Robin, if I went flying, then Id probably be the only guy on the airfield, so it would all be on me alone. And its been like that ever since.

Now dont get me wrong, our aeroclub has currency rules, but once qualified/checked out on an aeroplane, I just cant imagine having to get someone else's approval to fly to a particular aerodrome or on any particular day as is being described in this and the other thread.

Regards, SD..
By IMCR
#1843301
Were I running a flying club (God forbid) I would probably require a new member to do a check flight, and would then either sign them off to get on with it, or impose some sort of restriction for a limited number of hours if I sensed they were especially lacking in confidence, to be lifted as quickly as possible. Type would be a factor. I recall a pilot transitioning to a Cirrus and quite rightly the pilot in question was going to take a long time before you would be comfortable sending them off - just the way it was, but this was the opinion of three people.

I think you will find most CFIs have the odd horror story of qualified pilots that you wouldnt rush to let loose on your pride and joy, fortunately few and far between.
By Ibra
#1843305
Funny how a useful discussion on some very deep problem and struggle in the few years post-PPL life did turn up into a childish "I know where do you live, I will tell your dad" :(
By patowalker
#1843311
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:This chap has his licence and was wanting to hire an aeroplane, innit?


Yes, but the rental of permit to fly aircraft flown on a NPPL does not have the same track record as Part 21 aircraft flown on a PPL, so it is not surprising that rental conditions sometimes differ. I believe insurance rates reflect this, and explains the relatively high cost of renting aircraft that are cheaper to operate than one with a CofA..
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By JAFO
#1843313
@patowalker - I believe that you are the first person to suggest that it was not a Part 21 aircraft.

Given the scarcity of clubs renting permit aircraft, you are the one identifying the club, something you vilified the OP for doing. Now even I can have a guess at where it was.
By patowalker
#1843315
skydriller wrote:Then about a year later I moved to France and joined a real Aeroclub - as in a club by members for members -


There is nothing quite like a French aeroclub. Learning to fly at one has got to be the best deal around. :thumright:
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By patowalker
#1843316
JAFO wrote:@patowalker - I believe that you are the first person to suggest that it was not a Part 21 aircraft.

Given the scarcity of clubs renting permit aircraft, you are the one identifying the club, something you vilified the OP for doing. Now even I can have a guess at where it was.



Oh, come on! Just because you don't read or remember reading @flyingearly's posts, I doesn't mean others don't. He has posted regularly on what he flies and which airfields are within his preferred driving distance.
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By foxmoth
#1843319
Patowalker - you have certainly done more to identify the school/airfield (which I have still not identified nor wish to) than anyone else including the OP!

Miscellaneous- not sure why you would want to exclude the OP from renting for you, right at the start he said that he wanted to take it up with the school but was trying to get some input first to see how reasonable he was being - not surprising for a relatively new PPL, I can see how someone in that position might be nervous about challenging their school without that input and subsequently he was actually very supportive of the school. If I were the school owner/CFI I would at the least be sending a PM inviting a chat and maybe looking at the instructor that turned down authorising the flight, possibly also replying on the thread.
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By riverrock
#1843330
I think a few forget that many people, especially new PPLs, don't have a bunch of flying mates they can ask for advice from in confidence - hence one of the reasons forums like this exist. A place where you can ask your virtual flying mates a question.

I think the original question and discussion was excellent and good natured until someone started trying to identify the club / school which changed it to be personal rather than an excellent impersonal discussion, so the OP rightly requested it closed. Shame.
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By Miscellaneous
#1843332
foxmoth wrote:...right at the start he said that he wanted to take it up with the school but was trying to get some input first to see how reasonable he was being - not surprising for a relatively new PPL, I can see how someone in that position might be nervous about challenging their school without that input and subsequently he was actually very supportive of the school. If I were the school owner/CFI I would at the least be sending a PM inviting a chat and maybe looking at the instructor that turned down authorising the flight, possibly also replying on the thread.

Given where it's at I agree all of the above are ways forward from this point. :thumright:

foxmoth wrote:Miscellaneous- not sure why you would want to exclude the OP from renting for you...

I'm surprised, however happy to explain:
having read the thread I would have seen, whether intentional, or otherwise, someone unhappy with my business cause pilots to publicly decry my business. I would view the failure to show me the courtesy of coming to me directly for explanation/resolution as a breakdown of the relationship. How many were able to identify my business would be an unknown and of minor concern. I would have no interest in running the risk of the same individual creating another internet trial, particularly when that individual is doing all he can to stop renting from me anyway. I would simply not consider the limited income in the short term worth the risk.

Other approaches are available, I am not suggesting that's what a n other should do, that's their call. Indeed for the OP's sake I hope that is not the outcome. I am simply giving my approach to business. Which I would suggest is quite common. The notion the customer is always right being a fallacy.

rr wrote:I think a few forget that many people, especially new PPLs, don't have a bunch of flying mates they can ask for advice from in confidence

I consider that a very weak excuse for a PPL holder who post licence issue has been renting from me for in excess of a year to go public prior to speaking to me.
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By OhNoCB
#1843340
In my opinion the initial post was very fair an reasonable seeking some advice. It did not throw the school under the bus, by name or by otherwise.

I really see little to no difference between a relatively new pilot asking for measured opinion on a new situation to him or her prior to/alongside taking it up with the school and the numerous other forums online where someone might say "I got a wall plastered 2 weeks ago and there are some hairline cracks, should I be going back to the plasterer or is this normal?"

It would be entirely different if the OP had have come on all guns blazing, naming the school and calling them incompetent, threatening to leave bad reviews, declaring how awful they are but that is simply not what happened. The fact that there were some opinionated responses to the post is the very nature of an online forum and the way humanity interacts with it.

What a farce.
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By A4 Pacific
#1843345
The notion the customer is always right being a fallacy.


The customer may or may not “always be right”. But he or she IS always the one putting bread on your business’ table. Disrespect your customer at your peril.

Ask Gerald Irving Ratner!

There were a number of reasons mentioned by a significant poster why I wouldn’t be hanging around at this establishment. There are many, many alternative providers! Some of whom respect their customers.
By Crash one
#1843346
I don’t think the OP did anything wrong coming here first. Parts of his first post seemed to be asking if this kind of over cautious attitude was common/normal before approaching the club about it.
It’s also quite true, how do you learn about not so perfect met conditions if you are never allowed to experience them? At what point are you allowed to experience them by yourself?
But he wasn’t given the chance to talk to the instructor at the time, so he goes off and attempts to find out if he’s going to be shot to pieces because it’s perfectly normal procedure, or not. Fore warned is fore armed so to speak.
JAFO, riverrock, Full Metal Jackass and 3 others liked this
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