Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1851615
PaulisHome wrote:A PowerFlarm has a 50mW output (50 thousandths of a Watt), and usually uses an internal antenna. (PowerFlarm is a bit better than Flarm, but only a bit).

Paul


Not quite correct!
PowerFlarm Fusion uses external or internal antennas's. I have one external Flarm antenna on the bottom of the fuselage and one internal antenna utilising the systems antenna diversity.
Also connected to PowerFlarm Fusion is an external ADSB 'in' antenna.
According to Flarm, PowerFlarm range is substantially more powerful than ordinary Flarm. Flarm say triple the detection range!
https://flarm.com/products/powerflarm/
User avatar
By skydriller
#1851663
Cessna571 wrote: I flew just south with about 2000’ and approx 2 miles separation.
Wow!
It’s much much harder than you think, he was quite tiny, but eventually I spotted a little plane, amazed me how small he was, and he was painted bright white and I couldn’t spot him for a while.
What this showed me is that I don’t need to miss them by more than 3 miles…
Most of the stuff I miss in the air is hundreds of yards,


You only have to fly over an aerodrome at 5000ft and look down at parked aeroplanes to appreciate how small an aeroplane will be at 1 mile.
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By VinceGod
#1851669
skydriller wrote:You only have to fly over an aerodrome at 5000ft and look down at parked aeroplanes to appreciate how small an aeroplane will be at 1 mile.


Do you need oxygen going that high, that’s 3 times higher than my Cub can go.
User avatar
By ls8pilot
#1851675
PaulisHome wrote:
ls8pilot wrote:By the way if @uAvionix-Ramsey is reading - we had some confusion with the SE instructions which use the phrase "Tail Number" to specify the ADSB callsign - gliders (in UK and Europe at least) typically have a "Competition Number" on the tail - which is not the same as the G-REG, so many people entered this into the config, causing some tracker sites to Ghost the Flarm and SE signals, showing two gliders one with G-REG (off the Flarm DB) and Comp Number (presumably from the ADSB signal). I think "Tail Number" is maybe US usage?


Is this not more likely to be that the Flarm is still using the default Flarm code (DDDXXX) rather than the ICAO code of the aircraft, thus is seen as two separate contacts by the tracking sites? I think they deduplicate on this, not on a registration lookup.

Paul

Thanks Paul... already double checked and the glider in question had his flarm correctly set to the same hex ID as th SE2. This only seemed to occur with one tracker and has gone away now that we've set the ADSB ID to the GReg.


Leaving the Flarm id as default will cause ghosting, but at my club at least we've out out a couple of reminders to get people to fix this.
By PaulisHome
#1851691
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Not quite correct!
PowerFlarm Fusion uses external or internal antennas's. I have one external Flarm antenna on the bottom of the fuselage and one internal antenna utilising the systems antenna diversity.
Also connected to PowerFlarm Fusion is an external ADSB 'in' antenna.


Most Flarms are in gliders. Gliders don't use external antennas for Flarms. Hence "usually"

Shoestring Flyer wrote:According to Flarm, PowerFlarm range is substantially more powerful than ordinary Flarm. Flarm say triple the detection range!
https://flarm.com/products/powerflarm/


Yes, it's 50mW rather than 10mW. 5 times as much. Hence, "a bit better".

Paul
User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1851696
@PaulisHome
Hi Paul
out of interest have you seen in any document that FLARM is 50mw ?
I am sure that the legal limit is 25mw in the band used by flarm, but would need to go back and check ...

Thx
Lee
User avatar
By gaznav
#1851713
@leemoore1966

Don’t forget that FLARM doesn’t use an internationally agreed common frequency - so I’m expecting that power levels may vary according to the frequency allocation depending on which country you fly in?

Image

It’s a bit of gotcha that I didn’t realise when chatting to some Australian Pilots about using SkyEcho, and expecting them to be able to detect FLARM with it. Not so, as their FLARM is on a different frequency.

FLARM also state that their transmitter power for PowerFLARM is “ 40 mW regionally limited” as per this info: https://flarm.com/wp-content/uploads/ma ... OEM-EN.pdf

But their ATOM UAV kit can go up to 100mW (again depending on region): https://flarm.com/products/uav/atom-uav ... or-drones/
By PaulisHome
#1851740
leemoore1966 wrote:@PaulisHome
Hi Paul
out of interest have you seen in any document that FLARM is 50mw ?
I am sure that the legal limit is 25mw in the band used by flarm, but would need to go back and check ...

Thx
Lee


Actually, that was from (obviously poor) memory.

A quick google turns up the PowerFlarm integration module for OEMs, which specs a maximum output power of 40mW, but regionally limited. So I suspect you're right.

Paul
User avatar
By ls8pilot
#1851809
VinceGod wrote:If they have diversity with two RX/TX, each of 25mw they could be marketing it as 2x 25mw = 50mw.

AFAIK with Flarm diversity the 2nd antenna is receive only.


PostScript: Turns out this is incorrect for Europe, although it does depend on the region - see later (better researched) posts by @gaznav and others!
Last edited by ls8pilot on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gaznav liked this
By Shoestring Flyer
#1851813
ls8pilot wrote:AFAIK with Flarm diversity the 2nd antenna is receive only.


I would be interested to know where you have that information from because I don't think it is correct?
Having re-read again through both the PowerFlarmFusion installation manual and also the User manual, although it does not specifically say, the implication is that both A&B antenna do the same job and both transmit and receive together utilising antenna diversity.
User avatar
By gaznav
#1851818
Dual Antenna Diversity
Just like transponder signals, FLARM range is limited by radio line-of-sight. This means that especially a metal or carbon fiber aircraft (as well as equipment of these materials) will shield the signal. With only one antenna, the view is limited to one direction only, away from such materials. PowerFLARM features two radio transceivers for two separate antennas. Aircraft approaching you from behind or below will thus no longer be hidden.


https://flarm.com/wp-content/uploads/ma ... ARM-EN.pdf

Image
User avatar
By gaznav
#1851882
I’ve just been reading up about PowerFLARM. This is what I found:

5.3.8.1 FLARM Antennas (SMA Connector, RED Marking)
PowerFLARM Core has two separate FLARM radio transceivers: FLARM A and FLARM B. FLARM A is always used to receive and transmit and must always be connected to an antenna. FLARM B is used when activated with the RFB feature license and may be used for better performance/range.
When the RFB feature license is installed, A-version devices additionally receive on FLARM B, whereas E-version devices additionally both transmit and receive on FLARM B. Transmit rates will be dynamically balanced based on the radio traffic encountered by either antenna (full radio diversity).


These are the versions:
Image

So it looks like some can only receive using the second antennae (Australia, America and Israel). But it looks like Europe and others allow dual TX/RX. It’s quite complicated and not very interoperable if you fly between continents. So a New Zealand glider can’t use its PFLARM in Australia, as an example. Also not great for International Gliding Comps.
ls8pilot liked this
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