Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By uAvionix-Ramsey
#1846174
Take a look at any TSO certification manual and you will find the deviations from the standard that manufacturers take. This is common practice. In this case, there is no TSO, only CAP1391, which prohibits a full A0 powered 70W system (it allows for 40W max only). The A0 then best describes the other behaviors of the device other than power, which we've qualified clearly with the statement highlighted above in the installation manual.
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By Straight Level
#1846176
Cub wrote:
Straight Level wrote:Hopefully any update to CAP1391 will allow for external antennas and much of this issue would be eliminated.


I don’t believe CAP 1391 prevents external antennas in it’s current iteration, indeed I believe some approved devices have them. I fact I own two, a SkyEcho 1 and an ATT20B.


External, outside the aircraft.
i.e not inside the aircraft.
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By gaznav
#1846188
@leemoore1966 and @lobstaboy

Now this one is an enigma, in that CAP1391 states on Page 35:

For portable EC devices, the functionality could conform to transmitting- receive (Class A) and transmit-only (Class B). Given that these are portable low-power devices, Class A0 and B0 are appropriate to their applications. Class A1 has standard transmit power and a more sensitive receiver. Therefore, Class A0 represents the minimum in terms of available features for an EC device.


But then Page 52 states:

AMC 1391-4.5: RF peak output power (maximum)
The maximum RF peak output power of each pulse of each transmitted message at the antenna terminals of the EC device shall not exceed 16 dBW (40W). The operating manual should contain sufficient information to allow the user to set up the device antenna in such a way that it effectively allows the EC device to operate at its intended, optimal performance level.


So really there is no way a CAP1391 device can be fully compliant with Class A0 with respect to power as the CAP forbids it!!!

An amendment is required, methinks... :?
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846191
So has the range been tested?
70W = 10nm (18.5km)
20W = 2.9nm ?
I assume that's too simplistic?

Vector with its larger antenna can pick up further, but that isn't representative of air to air.
User avatar
By ls8pilot
#1846199
riverrock wrote:So has the range been tested?
70W = 10nm (18.5km)
20W = 2.9nm ?
I assume that's too simplistic?

Vector with its larger antenna can pick up further, but that isn't representative of air to air.


Not that simple I suspect, Flarm manages a reliable 1 to 2nm with less than 0.5W... Air:air, and 70km or more with a high gain terrestrial antenna.

Vector reports the maximum range my SE2 picked up is around 60km (terrestrial antenna) but 20km to 30km more typical (lower gain antenna than used for Flarm).

Lot of variables I guess
By Straight Level
#1846201
ls8pilot wrote:
riverrock wrote:So has the range been tested?
70W = 10nm (18.5km)
20W = 2.9nm ?
I assume that's too simplistic?

Vector with its larger antenna can pick up further, but that isn't representative of air to air.


Not that simple I suspect, Flarm manages a reliable 1 to 2nm with less than 0.5W... Air:air, and 70km or more with a high gain terrestrial antenna.

Vector reports the maximum range my SE2 picked up is around 60km (terrestrial antenna) but 20km to 30km more typical (lower gain antenna than used for Flarm).

Lot of variables I guess


The other main variable is the vast difference in data rate.
Flarm PAW is something like 25kbs (kilobits per sec) and ADSB is 1mbs (1 mega bit per sec).
The faster the data rate lowers the signal to noise ratio (requiring more power for the signal to be readable), so trying to make range comparison based on power alone is not possible.
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1846204
johnm wrote:
The only thing that we've established thus far is that ADS-B professionally installed kit does a good job of transmission, but finding a equally good airborne receiver is tricky

Flarm can do an excellent job of both Tx and Rx if proper professional kit is professionally installed but outside the glider community usage is patchy to say the least


I don't know why you think the above.
The, installed by me in my LAA aircraft, PowerFlarmFusion, works very well indeed. In fact sometimes I think almost too well!
I now have the range reduced to 4nm horizontally and 1000ft vertically ( due to seeing too much frivolous traffic)and the amount of ADSB, Flarm/PowerFlarm, Mode S traffic I see is quite alarming at times. Half the traffic I don't ever see visually, but on the V3+ display and other traffic displays I have it is certainly there.
Just pay the money and stop expecting the low cost portable stuff to do the job properly...it can't and wont!
PowerFlarmFusion whch also has ADSB 'in and Mode S 'in' is definitely the way to go for serious traffic detection IMHO.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846210
@Shoestring Flyer Doh :roll: I hadn't twigged that Powerflarm received ADS-B and Mode S it starts to look like a no brainer..... :roll:
By Shoestring Flyer
#1846217
johnm wrote:@Shoestring Flyer Doh :roll: I hadn't twigged that Powerflarm received ADS-B and Mode S it starts to look like a no brainer..... :roll:


If you can afford the initial cost it definitely is. I took a leap of faith in PowerFlarmFusion and I am over the moon with it. It works brilliantly!
Combined with an ES Transponder which I understand you already have
PowerFlarm Fusion will give you both PowerFlarm/Flarm'in and out'.
ADSB 'in and out'
Mode S 'in and out' ( non-directional) but very useful if you also install the V3+ dedicated traffic display.
All traffic detection is direct, air to air, no ground stations needed.
...and also no subscriptions ever to anyone for anything! Flarm updates are free and no Flarm or Skydemon/EasyVfr subscription needed.
User avatar
By ls8pilot
#1846235
Shoestring Flyer wrote:
johnm wrote:@Shoestring Flyer Doh :roll: I hadn't twigged that Powerflarm received ADS-B and Mode S it starts to look like a no brainer..... :roll:


If you can afford the initial cost it definitely is. I took a leap of faith in PowerFlarmFusion and I am over the moon with it. It works brilliantly!
Combined with an ES Transponder which I understand you already have
PowerFlarm Fusion will give you both PowerFlarm/Flarm'in and out'.
ADSB 'in and out'
Mode S 'in and out' ( non-directional) but very useful if you also install the V3+ dedicated traffic display.
All traffic detection is direct, air to air, no ground stations needed.
...and also no subscriptions ever to anyone for anything! Flarm updates are free and no Flarm or Skydemon/EasyVfr subscription needed.


PowerFlarm Fusion is certainly a very flexible option & there are multiple different traffic display possibilities (eg https://gliding.lxnav.com/products/trafficview/) - all Flarm displays will work with any Flarm receiver & there are several manufacturers.

Also, if you are in a non-Part 21 aircraft and doing a bigger panel refit, you can get Nav displays which will integrate with a Flarm receiver (eg https://ul.lxnav.com/products/ec10/ or https://www.lxnavigation.com/aviation/navigation/

Not cheap.... but does all work together well.
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User avatar
By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846237
Shoestring Flyer wrote:
johnm wrote:@Shoestring Flyer Doh :roll: I hadn't twigged that Powerflarm received ADS-B and Mode S it starts to look like a no brainer..... :roll:


If you can afford the initial cost it definitely is. I took a leap of faith in PowerFlarmFusion and I am over the moon with it. It works brilliantly!
Combined with an ES Transponder which I understand you already have
PowerFlarm Fusion will give you both PowerFlarm/Flarm'in and out'.
ADSB 'in and out'
Mode S 'in and out' ( non-directional) but very useful if you also install the V3+ dedicated traffic display.
All traffic detection is direct, air to air, no ground stations needed.
...and also no subscriptions ever to anyone for anything! Flarm updates are free and no Flarm or Skydemon/EasyVfr subscription needed.


PowerFlarm Fusion is indeed a superb piece of detection kit kit if you are already doing ADS-B Out from your aircraft, if a tad pricey for some people.
User avatar
By exfirepro
#1846264
@johnm

Although it has been stated by several users that PowerFLARM can ‘see and report’ ADS-B, Mode C and ModeS, be aware that in most cases this requires a dedicated 1090MHz receive option - which must usually be specified at time of purchase. AFAIAA, only the recently released PowerFlarm Fusion comes with all options (including top and bottom antenna diversity for Flarm - though one of these is receive only!) already enabled. To my knowledge there are currently NO PowerFLARM devices which transmit ADSB.

Taking account of all of your posts on EC that I have read and in particular the type of flying that you appear to do, the fact that you already have ADS-B and Mode-S Out via the Mode-S/ES route from your transponder, and your desire to see (and presumably be seen by) FLARM-equipped aircraft, Power FLARM Fusion - even at £1,740 + display (+ presumably professional fit with externally mounted antennas) sounds to me like the only option you will be happy with to provide you with receive capability compatible with your current setup (plus the addition of FLARM transmit and receive). Anything else is, I feel sure, likely to disappoint in the longer term.

Hope this helps with your decision.

Best Regards

Peter
(PilotAware Development Team)
By malcolmfrost
#1846278
The photo of the GPS chip in SE2 explains why it is pretty slow in acquiring a signal compared to every other device I own! After leaving it for a week it seems to need at least 5 minutes to "lock on".
By Shoestring Flyer
#1846296
PowerFlarmFusion was a mere £1500 in December at it's intial launch, less a bit of discount and less the £250 subsidy made it quite a bit more palatable at the time.
I took, for me, a bit of a gamble on the product at the time and it has certainly paid off.
Even at todays price I would still buy it, as it is definitely the best solution for seeing all traffic and transmitting PowerFlarm to the gliders so they can also see you.
Regarding installation..It is not hard to do a permanent fit yourself with Inspector sign off if you have a Permit aircraft. This is what I did. No LAA Mod is needed.
Obviously if you want to do a permanent installation in a CAA machine things will get a bit more complicated and expensive.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1846313
Thanks to less medieval aspects of this debate I think I now have a way forward.

I am going to persevere with SE2 for the time being and experiment with different positioning. I am going to monitor CS-Stan update and assuming that comes through next year I'll suggest to the group we replace the old ELT infrastructure in our aeroplane with PowerFLARM fusion.
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