Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By NDB_hold
#1841739
Finally confirmation from the CAA regarding IR(R) holders and the need for PBN training and testing:

https://www.caa.co.uk/CAP2138

Basically, you don’t need to be trained and tested on PBN but you are advised to do so if you plan to fly PBN approaches.

If only the government hadn’t conspired to remove the easiest and safest version, LPV...
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841752
However if you are a signed off PBN IR pilot, thanks to the impending disappearance of EGNOS and LPV we risk losing our PBN sign off every year at IR revalidation if a PBN approach through no fault of our own cannot be found .
User avatar
By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841757
PeteSpencer wrote:However if you are a signed off PBN IR pilot, thanks to the impending disappearance of EGNOS and LPV we risk losing our PBN sign off every year at IR revalidation if a PBN approach through no fault of our own cannot be found .

An RNP approach doesn't have to be LPV.

It would be perfectly reasonable to fly an ILS and an LNAV approach for revalidation of your IR.
johnm, Stampe, MikeB liked this
By Stampe
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841770
Unfortunately the whole egnos issue has become very emotive especially with those who would have preferred to remain in the EU.Negotiations with the EU are always torturous ,painful and resolved at the last possible minute.Having asked for an enormous sum for continuation I am hopeful shortly before the end date or just after a reasonable sensible figure will be settled on.In the the meantime egnos hysteria will continue.Never pay the asked price and there is only one way to negotiate with a bully!
Regards Stampe Fly safe defensively and compliant!
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841778
I don’t think emotion has anything to do with it at this point.

The UK is learning what a 3rd country relationship with the EU and its institutions implies and starting to try to cope with the practical implications of the “deal”, which has yet to be ratified by the European Parliament incidentally.
Andrew Sinclair, kanga liked this
By Ibra
#1841815
Can one comply with lack of RNP approaches by flying conventional approach ILS, VOR, NDB on it's GNSS overlay?

I think one can mannually keep flying the magenta line all the time while monitoring the NavAid on second box? a useful exercise especially for VOR & NDB approach without DME but having GPS overlay in database, better have the two than just one?

I think no one is mad enough to fly VOR & NDB in real life down to 400ft agl in 3km visibility? VOR & NDB antennas are usually in middle of forests or top of hills away from runway thresholds, they make some ugly sights as one comes out of clouds blinking they eyes :lol:

Better use them to tick PBN box now that we lost LPV and LNAV are not getting printed anytime soon?
By Ibra
#1841828
We are talking about ticking a box in the training requirements, everybody will agree that RNP is not GPS overlay (design, blabla...), altough they can't explain what is different in terms of execution as it's the same thing: 200nm load & you fly magenta & go missed

The same way, PFL is not a FL but you have to show you know how to fly one :lol:

Not far away (US & France) the SOP is to fly Conv NDB NPA (the few that are left) on GPS overlay just like any RNP, AP on NAV mode as bonus and cross-check on NDB for go-missed, are you saying they got that wrong and they should hand fly on ADF? there are few operators who can fly NDB IAP on GPS without ADF or even fly DIY RNP approach without published IAP as it's approved in their golden book, I am sure getting the luxury of logging those for the average GA pilot during training & renewal will be far more appreciated, especially if it takes 3 days of 7 am morning calls "to book an approach slot" or having to cancel your test and let the examiner know at 11am on the day or fly 300nm...

Before you could fly ILS+DME, ILS, LOC+DME, LOC all in one flight and go home, now it has to be two flights, as we can't have LPV now does anyone know a single GA airport that has LNAV+ILS to hit the two in one go?
User avatar
By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841832
Ibra wrote:..does anyone know a single GA airport that has LNAV+ILS to hit the two in one go?


Gloucester and Liverpool to name but two. And many others if you switch off SBAS.
By Stampe
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841835
“does anyone know a single GA airport that has LNAV+ILS to hit the two in one go?”

In the South East Lydd EGMD gets a lot of Instrument training/testing traffic and seems to be regarded as a one stop shop.Also the GPS approaches are standalone with no other aids involved in the go around.
Regards Stampe
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841839
PBN sign off is a bit of a mystery to me as PBN approaches on a suitably equipped aircraft are much easier than approaches with ground based aids. The issue is all about understanding the implications of error messages on the kit and what that implies about the safety of the RNP approach.

From a practical point of view it ought to be possible to demonstrate the necessary accuracy by flying an overlay on a conventional approach.
Stampe, Ibra, pete2052 liked this
User avatar
By MattL
#1841847
I think the key thing here is that on a IR proficiency check in the aircraft you could now do a NDB / ILS then the RNP in a FSTD: with an MEP where you have to travel far to get the RNP that could be quite a cost saving way to do it.
Ibra liked this
By Ibra
#1841903
Stampe wrote:“does anyone know a single GA airport that has LNAV+ILS to hit the two in one go?”

In the South East Lydd EGMD gets a lot of Instrument training/testing traffic and seems to be regarded as a one stop shop.Also the GPS approaches are standalone with no other aids involved in the go around.
Regards Stampe



Yes I flew there few times to tick approach boxes, from North London it's the only place in SE actually, Cambridge/Cranfield are impossible to fly to, Norwich is far, but one can do Southend & Calais in one go but not many examiners are that keen

But there are few catches, Lydd is procedural in Class G, there are not that many slots, if it's IMC above 1000ft not many will FI/FE go train/test with no radar service in clouds (RHS need to lookout), you can't ask vectors on initial approach & missed if you don't have "solid pannel"...

The "solid pannel": you don't have ADF you are stuck on ILS missed, if you don't have GPS you are stuck on ROMTI hold, if you don't have DME you can't do DME arc on initial approach, voila, I am not sure how many people have the full set of ILS/VOR+ADF+LPV+DME fully working in their mounts? or rented aircrafts? but it's not a rosy picture across schools fleet, I used to rent one aircraft in North Weald that seems to have everything & working for the tests (I am afraid to use my aircraft ADF from 1960 during exam, my nearby Cirrus driver does the same when going to Lydd, he does not have ADF/DME :lol: )

If one can do overlays for RNP that would at least make life easier every year for the typical GA pilots who are flying IFR from less ideal airfield in less ideal aircraft...
Stampe liked this
By Stampe
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841920
Well summated Ibra.I make use of the IR(R) clause that if a satisfactory approach is observed and signed off by an instructor the examiner only needs to see one approach.
Very useful at easing the hunt for suitable and available approaches for the test.
Regards Stampe. fly safe compliant and confident.
By Ibra
#1841923
Indeed, IMCr rating has that advantage to do one approach signed and one in the test with two years period, so the logistics during the exam on finding a suitable airfield & aircraft are way lighter without compromising test standards

IR has advantage of revalidation in the sim if last one was in aircraft but you need to find a sim, but it gets creepy on equipements requirements (some RHS require Class A flying and will insist on DME/ADF and two 8.33khz radios for that, for approach it require DnD/CDFA? 2D/3D? PA/NPA? RNP/ILS? you just can't please everybody and better keep own opinion to yourself :lol: ), I would not add that someone in CAA decided to put NDB missed & hold segment inside the plates of the few GPS approaches we have but did not put RNP/NDB in the name of plate :eye: