Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By chevvron
#1841185
NATS have apparently regained the contract for providing ATC staff for ATC services at Gatwick airport wef Oct 2022.
Approach control services never moved but aerodrome and GMC will once again be provided by NATS.
Not that anyone on here will be interested. :twisted:
By Mike Tango
#1841190
Albeit NATS Solutions Ltd and not the previous NATS Services Ltd.

Think Ryanair for the former and more BA for the latter. There are wider implications here, I may pen some thoughts in due course.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841192
So existing employees have to reapply for whatever jobs are going at NATS?
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By Andrew Sinclair
#1841217
chevvron wrote:NATS have apparently regained the contract for providing ATC staff for ATC services at Gatwick airport wef Oct 2022.
Approach control services never moved but aerodrome and GMC will once again be provided by NATS.
Not that anyone on here will be interested. :twisted:


I am
By chevvron
#1841224
Mike Tango wrote:Albeit NATS Solutions Ltd and not the previous NATS Services Ltd.

Think Ryanair for the former and more BA for the latter. There are wider implications here, I may pen some thoughts in due course.

Be interested to know why NATS have formed yet another company; is it so that controllers with just ADI/ADV ratings can go on a different salary scale to those with APS ratings or simply splitting the ATC side with the engineering side?
By chevvron
#1841225
James Chan wrote:So existing employees have to reapply for whatever jobs are going at NATS?

The way I understand the system, the 'new' contractor has to agree to employ all those employed by the 'old' one on equal or better terms (pay, leave and pensions) unless some of those employees do not wish to serve under the new employer.
There was a company in the UK which, on taking over a contract, would sack all the previous staff then offer jobs to some of them on inferior terms.
By Mike Tango
#1841241
chevvron wrote:Be interested to know why NATS have formed yet another company; is it so that controllers with just ADI/ADV ratings can go on a different salary scale to those with APS ratings or simply splitting the ATC side with the engineering side?


NATS Solutions is a subsidiary of NATS Services and was incorporated circa 2014 to transfer into the NATS fold staff from some other smaller, previously non NATS, units and operates with different staff T&Cs to Services and NERL.

What with this move to use Solutions at Gatwick rather than Services, plus staff in the wider NERL/Services world recently entering a formal trade dispute with the company as it chooses to walk away unilaterally from a number of employee/employer industrial agreements, there are interesting times ahead.

Does any of this mean anything to GA pilots here though?

Yes, it does. The chances of you ever seeing the integrated seamless UK ATC service you would like GA to have fair and equal access to are further less than zero than they’ve ever been. The business model of the main air traffic control service provider the country has chosen to operate is based purely upon minimising costs to the airlines whilst maximising profit to the shareholders (who also include the airlines). As it now seeks to start tackling more aggressively, in an industrial relations sense, its biggest cost (staff), services to users on the periphery of the airline core, except where required by law or licence, seem somewhat superfluous.

UK ATC and the operation of what should be a freely available piece of national infrastructure, the airspace above you, is broken. It’s so broken and fragmented that the biggest ANSP in the country is now operating services in full or in part by utilising at least four different entities that I can think of, never mind all the other providers available. How, within such a structure, can there ever be anything other than a disjointed and disconnected mess?

It’s a joke.
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By chevvron
#1841246
Next thing you know NATS Solutions will be bidding to take over ATS from HIAL; after all NATS successfully operated the majority of HIAL airports (Barra and Dundee weren't NATS and Inverness was NATS but had 4 controllers) using a single ATCO who was also airport manager until the hierarchy decided this was wrong.
By Flythrough
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841271
chevvron wrote:The way I understand the system, the 'new' contractor has to agree to employ all those employed by the 'old' one on equal or better terms (pay, leave and pensions) unless some of those employees do not wish to serve under the new employer.


Pensions are not included under TUPE rules.
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By Flythrough
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841273
chevvron wrote:Next thing you know NATS Solutions will be bidding to take over ATS from HIAL; after all NATS successfully operated the majority of HIAL airports (Barra and Dundee weren't NATS and Inverness was NATS but had 4 controllers) using a single ATCO who was also airport manager until the hierarchy decided this was wrong.


Hang on, give HIAL a chance to relocate all their controllers into one building and the Scottish Government to write off the huge costs of the said project first, then ............... :roll:
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841278
The chances of you ever seeing the integrated seamless UK ATC service you would like GA to have fair and equal access to are further less than zero than they’ve ever been.


Without sounding like a stuck record, but for over ten years, I have been arguing for better legislation and regulation of this industry/sector.

One can look at Ofcom and Ofgem to see how phones, and other utilities work.

Regardless of the corporate hierarchy of NATS, if there is anti-competitive behaviour, conflicts of interest, or preferential treatment going on and if most efficient use of airspace (and runways too) isn’t happening, then it must be challenged.
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By chevvron
#1841375
James Chan wrote:
The chances of you ever seeing the integrated seamless UK ATC service you would like GA to have fair and equal access to are further less than zero than they’ve ever been.


Without sounding like a stuck record, but for over ten years, I have been arguing for better legislation and regulation of this industry/sector.

One can look at Ofcom and Ofgem to see how phones, and other utilities work.

Regardless of the corporate hierarchy of NATS, if there is anti-competitive behaviour, conflicts of interest, or preferential treatment going on and if most efficient use of airspace (and runways too) isn’t happening, then it must be challenged.

Up until about 1980, there were only 2 ANSPs, NATS and the RAF, but the 'Prohibition of unlicensed controllers' Act and the simultaneous introduction of the FISO License put paid to all that.
By chevvron
#1841608
Flythrough wrote:
chevvron wrote:The way I understand the system, the 'new' contractor has to agree to employ all those employed by the 'old' one on equal or better terms (pay, leave and pensions) unless some of those employees do not wish to serve under the new employer.


Pensions are not included under TUPE rules.

I stand corrected; when we talked about the Birmingham contract I thought they were.
But at least this system stops 'other' ANSPs from deliberately underbidding in order to get the contract like the one I heard of (from one of the controllers involved) who sacked ALL ATC staff the friday they took over the contract then spent the weekend offering about 50% of them their jobs back for longer hours and lower salaries starting on the monday.
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By BEX
#1841619
Up until about 1980, there were only 2 ANSPs, NATS and the RAF,


Not so. Many local authority airports operated their own ATC, Exeter, Norwich, Castle Donnington for example.

IAL (now SERCO) also had a number of contracts across the UK back then

BEX :thumleft: