Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Sooty25
#1844435
Maintenance "anomolies" didn't cause Shoreham, it was pilot error and nothing else..

Maintenance "anomolies" didn't cause the Avenger to ditch, it was pilot error and nothing else..

Both had indication, opportunity and time to avoid what happened.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By A4 Pacific
#1844436
Sooty25 wrote:Maintenance "anomolies" didn't cause Shoreham, it was pilot error and nothing else..

Maintenance "anomolies" didn't cause the Avenger to ditch, it was pilot error and nothing else..

Both had indication, opportunity and time to avoid what happened.


I do understand what you are saying. But some may take the view that neither of those “pilot errors” occurred in isolation. In both cases there were a number of significant events long beforehand.

Making them examples of what I’m talking about.

That leads me to disagree that “it was pilot error and nothing else.. There was opportunity for prior and effective intervention. In neither of those cases was that opportunity taken?
NigelC liked this
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By Lockhaven
#1844448
A4 Pacific wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:Maintenance "anomolies" didn't cause Shoreham, it was pilot error and nothing else..

Maintenance "anomolies" didn't cause the Avenger to ditch, it was pilot error and nothing else..

Both had indication, opportunity and time to avoid what happened.


I do understand what you are saying. But some may take the view that neither of those “pilot errors” occurred in isolation. In both cases there were a number of significant events long beforehand.

Making them examples of what I’m talking about.

That leads me to disagree that “it was pilot error and nothing else.. There was opportunity for prior and effective intervention. In neither of those cases was that opportunity taken?


I couldn't agree more, take the Shoreham crash, the year before the same pilot of the Hunter nearly speared in a Jet Provost during a barrel roll that went very wrong along the crowd line.

His recovery was approx 30-50ft above the beach with his exit directly towards and over the crowd line.

I was there and saw it with a vivid front on view, that was the time for effective intervention.
A4 Pacific liked this
By Crash one
#1844454
If an aircraft takes off with the pilot aware of a fault, surely everything that happens relative to that fault after that is pilot error? Starting with, he shouldn’t have taken off in the first place, he shouldn’t have allowed the fault to develop further by continuing with the display, he didn’t attend the briefing so didn’t attempt to land at the prescribed place in the event of a problem etc etc.
If Dan Gryder is correct in what he says.
It has changed my view of so called Sky Gods and the integrity of high end management in this industry.
By Hooligan
#1844467
Did he take off with a fault? I can't be bothered to wade through any more Dan Griper, whether or not he's right.

I understood the Avenger was trying to land at the prescribed emergency airfield, Patrick AFB; the threshold is around half a mile from where he ditched and two or three miles from the display site. If Merritt Island has been mentioned as an emergency landing field, that would have entailed flying over populated beach strip/Banana River islands and it's perhaps six or seven miles.

Might have been sensible to have kept the beach close to Patrick's threshold clear of swimmers if it was indeed an emergency landing ground... hindsight, eh?
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By Rob L
#1844489
Hooligan wrote:...Might have been sensible to have kept the beach close to Patrick's threshold clear of swimmers if it was indeed an emergency landing ground... hindsight, eh?


That was not where the airshow was, nor where the ditching was. Nothing to do with Patrick AFB :roll:
By Hooligan
#1844654
Rob L wrote:
Hooligan wrote:That was not where the airshow was, nor where the ditching was. Nothing to do with Patrick AFB :roll:


Where do you think the ditching was then?

FlyingDutch, appreciate the advice :D but I've heard quite enough of him already in several other videos. He may have some extremely valid points to make which would come across far better if he spoke dispassionately.
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By Sooty25
#1844668
Hooligan wrote:
Rob L wrote:
Hooligan wrote:That was not where the airshow was, nor where the ditching was. Nothing to do with Patrick AFB :roll:


Where do you think the ditching was then?

FlyingDutch, appreciate the advice :D but I've heard quite enough of him already in several other videos. He may have some extremely valid points to make which would come across far better if he spoke dispassionately.


@Hooligan this link starts at abou 10:45, a few seconds after you will see the avengers flight path, most of which was carried out with a smoke trail

https://youtu.be/mVFwYqueJ58?t=633
By Hooligan
#1844830
So we have two different places for the ditching - Patowalker's image shows the ditching as taking place opposite the West Cocoa Beach Causeway, the link to Dan Gryder's video that Sooty25 provided (I watched a snatch chancing cauliflower ears, perhaps Dan earned a few more cents from me clicking the link?) shows it as happening pretty much where I said it did, just a half mile up the coast from Patrick's threshold. Who is right?

Third pic down in the first link below shows the aircraft being craned ashore - note the palm trees and the stop sign. You will also see the same trees and sign in the Google Maps link.

The Aviationist: https://tinyurl.com/5y9cdz6r
Google Maps: https://tinyurl.com/chhramsr

Right next to Patrick AFB, just up from the runway...

The point is there's a lot of misinformation out there which then gets misrepresented as fact - I don't believe Gryder is doing anything useful - as somebody else said "Accident Investigation by YouTube is bad for everyone."

My earlier point about keeping a short stretch of beach clear under Patrick's approach if indeed it was the designated emergency airport is just something I think might be considered - with the hindsight of Shoreham and also the Spitfire crash at Rouen where an emergency runway was obstructed by spectators.
By A4 Pacific
#1844844
as somebody else said "Accident Investigation by YouTube is bad for everyone."


Accident investigation should be left to the professionals.

Accessible accident analysis is valuable to everyone! I think anyone with a functioning brain cell accepts that what they see on YouTube might generally be little more than opinion, but when that opinion comes from someone with a genuine insight and often knowledge of those involved, I think it’s worth listening to? Equally they will sometimes get it wrong. I know of another similar channel that has had to ‘fess up. I don’t know whether ‘Probable Cause’ has ever been caught out??

Dan Gryder clearly rattles cages in desperate need of percussion adjustment, which I think is a good thing. I like him.

There are some excellent aviation channels on YouTube.

Hooligan

Your forensic dissection of the precise location of the ditching is riveting. Dan Gryder’s point is that the Avenger should still be in one piece having never ditched at all, nor threatened anyone’s lives.

Wood for the trees?
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By Lockhaven
#1844847
Hooligan wrote:So we have two different places for the ditching - Patowalker's image shows the ditching as taking place opposite the West Cocoa Beach Causeway, the link to Dan Gryder's video that Sooty25 provided (I watched a snatch chancing cauliflower ears, perhaps Dan earned a few more cents from me clicking the link?) shows it as happening pretty much where I said it did, just a half mile up the coast from Patrick's threshold. Who is right?

Right next to Patrick AFB, just up from the runway...


@Hooligan

I mentioned much earlier in this thread that an attempt to reach Patricks AFB was his intention, that is still my understanding.

viewtopic.php?p=1841622#p1841622
By Maxthelion
#1844856
I think it's acepted by all that he probably had Patrick's in mind when he first realised he was losing power. The problem is that by the time he realised what everyone was telling him was true - i.e. he had been smoking for pretty much his entire flight because it was sick - the engine was too far gone to do anything more than ditch straight ahead. After all, his passes were low and very close in to the crowd. When the donk quits that low you've got whatever is within a 60 degree arc in from of you. His options were the beach, the surf, or a few hundred feet further out to sea.
By Hooligan
#1844924
A4 Pacific, I totally agree that a general discussion and analysis of accidents and incidents on specialist forums such as this is healthy, particularly if expertise is available. On YouTube it is watched by those who don't have a clue and treat it all as fact, rebroadcast it, etc, etc. I'm not saying Dan IS wrong and I certainly agree that if the clues were ignored, then it's bloody stupid.

Sorry for the forensics but I was told I was incorrect about Patrick (and therefore so must Lockhaven have been by inference :D ), so I checked my facts and shared them. It's all the rage dontcha know!

Anyway, I'll keep quiet now.
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