[leiafee]

OK, but genuine question @leiafee : other than some execrable pronunciation, what good will that NOTAM do?

I love Welsh, and I wish I could speak it - I even made a brief attempt in my teens to learn some. But I don’t think NOTAMs are a way to achieve a revival of the language.

The NOTAM isn’t to add the requirement of Welsh though is it. The thread title is misleading on purpose for “comic” effect.

The NOTAM is to say there has to be a covid annoucement. And that it has to be in the language of departure, English, and the language of arrival which is, in this case, Welsh.

It’s bound to just be a recording, why would the prounciation need to be dramatically awful, youkd get a welsh speaker to record it, there’s almost a million of us, we’re not that hard to find. Audio annoucements in the terminal are routinely bilingual, why is it even worthy of comment?

As to what good it does the language - every single bilingual announcement, every one, is part of the process of normalisation. Of removing it from the category of “novelty” which makes it vulnerable to things like this thread, and establishing it as equally valid. As an established part of a normal, bilingual country.

Incidentally, the understanding of how people learn languages most effectively has almost certainly moved on since your teens and many courses now reflect that should you wish to try again!

[rikur_]

I was led to believe that in restaurants on the Llŷn you'd get a discount for ordering in Welsh (sort of a locals discount scheme, whilst milking the Abersoch yachters) ..... perhaps PPR in Welsh gets a landing fee waiver?

[Bill McCarthy]

In our local rag this week - the staff at Wick airport (which is just about defunct anyway) are to be given Gaelic tuition, for what, God knows. Another vanity project. I noted that the Welsh tribute to the duke and was broadcast to the nation in their language - are they trying to wind us up. Two Welsh herberts in our mess thought that speaking their language in the company of others was a good idea. They were told to clear off into the fore-ends, and that’s putting it mildly, and return when they were prepared to communicate mannerly with non speakers.

[skydriller]

I was led to believe that in restaurants on the Llŷn you'd get a discount for ordering in Welsh (sort of a locals discount scheme, whilst milking the Abersoch yachters)

If indeed true I would be surprised if that was not racial discrimination.
Can you imagine the furore if someone decided to openly charge, say, all polish people, or lets go further all West Indians, more... based solely on their accents?

And yes, sorry, but this is funny. It is the equivilent of Quimper requiring a safety brief in Breton and putting out a NOTAM to that effect. I must be a really bad person because I found most of the following comments funny too.

Regards, SD..

[kanga]

I'm absolutely with Leia on all her reactions

A couple of further observations:

a. It's ages since I took the train to London, but for Gloucester/Cheltenham some are through trains to or from Paddington, while for some there is a branch line to/from Swindon where one must change to/from the main line. Those Swindon trains are mostly from/to Bristol, but some also or instead go/went from/to Newport and Cardiff. I don't know if they still do. Anyway, I can recall some loudspeaker announcements both at Paddington (in the era before there were only announcement boards) and on the train itself in both languages, presumably when there was serendipitously a bilingual employee; I don't suppose the bilingualism was ever a job requirement, although perhaps on the Cardiff trains and at the stations in Wales it should be achievable with recordings for routine announcements .. anyway, I liked hearing them, but ISTR being on a train where a fellow-passenger volubly did not I pointedly asked another passenger, whom I had seen wincing, in Welsh if she was going on to Cardiff It is one thing not to need that extra bit of service, but quite another to be resentful if it is proactively offered to others.

b. We often visit family in Sydney (NSW not NS!). Usually we have been with airlines which stop in the Gulf (Etihad, Emirates or Qantas before they changed to stops in Singapore). We were once on BA (stops in Singapore) both ways, only because it was a codeshare with Qantas. It was noticeable that Etihad and Emirates cabin crew made cabin announcements in Arabic and English always, that at the beginning of every flight announced (in Arabic and English) which other languages were available among the cabin crew, and that cabin crew wore national flag pins indicating their language competencies. Qantas made similar announcements (English only), and had similar pins (rather fewer on most crew, as far as I could see). BA IIRC made no such announcements and had no equivalent pins; but they made recorded announcements prior to landing in Singapore in Mandarin Chinese (while Cantonese is the Singapore language!). Anyway, the BA approach was not only disappointing to me as a language nerd, but struck me as poor customer service; unfortunately, it may be typical of companies which while having an international footprint are based in a monolingual anglophone culture.

[I've looked at the Times article. The core facts may be correct (I don't know) but the headline and tone seem arrogant. The article is under the weekly spoof by Hugo Rifkind which imagines the diary entries for the week of a politician or other public figure who has been in the news, which made me wonder whether the core story is itself a spoof. I suppose it might have been left over from 1 April, and put to various people (a 'travel writer' talking about an 'unwelcome extra burden on pilots', and Yes Cymru and Plaid Cymru spokesfolk saying 'why not ?') to get a rise out of them. The reporter's byline is Kaya Burgess of The Times, who has been their Religious Affairs correspondent, and has also written for The Guardian

From The Times website (my bold):

"news reporter and religious affairs correspondent. @kayaburgess. Kaya Burgess covers breaking news and religion stories. He has also written the paper's satirical TMS column, runs the award-winning Cities Fit for Cycling campaign, and worked on the Time to Mind child mental health campaign. He joined The Times in 2008."

and blog:


https://kayaburgessblog.wordpress.com/ ]

[A4 Pacific]

Hi Kanga

BA IIRC made no such announcements and had no equivalent pins; but they made recorded announcements prior to landing in Singapore in Mandarin Chinese (while Cantonese is the Singapore language!). Anyway, the BA approach was not only disappointing to me as a language nerd, but struck me as poor customer service; unfortunately, it may be typical of companies which while having an international footprint are based in a monolingual anglophone culture.

I’m afraid I have to mildly disagree to some extent with your conclusion, which I highlighted in bold.

BA used to employ fairly large numbers of foreign based, national crew who operated on flights and slipped in London. Certainly there was a large Hong Kong base to cover flights to Cantonese and Mandarin speaking destinations for just one example. To have such language skills on board is more than simply ‘customer service’. It’s also important to be able to exchange information during many significant events with customers who are unable to communicate in English at all!

It also used to be the case that British Airways would expect all cabin crew to have a second (and possibly third/fourth?) language.

Indeed BA recruited some Spanish cabin crew who had been turned down by Iberia because their English wasn’t good enough!

But now BA cabin crew are recruited on terms lower than an individual working on the checkout at your local Asda.

So the customer gets what the customer will now pay for. At least that’s the mantra from those creaming off obscene bonuses from that offering! Boy does BA love to incentivise it’s directors/managers with short term targets!

On the flip side. During Maggie Thatcher’s time, and Ayling’s stewardship, BA tried to acknowledge it’s worldwide reach and customer base with their ‘ethnic tailfins’. But very many people felt that detracted from one of it’s USPs. It’s consummate ‘Britishness’. Sometimes you just can’t win!

Just food for thought. That’s all.

Of course in strict reference to the title of this thread, ‘departure clearances’ will never be issued in Welsh. Because the international language of ATC is English. (Unless you’re in France! Which is the Wild West for aircraft safety!)

[rikur_]

Anyway, I can recall some loudspeaker announcements both at Paddington (in the era before there were only announcement boards) and on the train itself in both languages, presumably when there was serendipitously a bilingual employee; I don't suppose the bilingualism was ever a job requirement, although perhaps on the Cardiff trains and at the stations in Wales it should be achievable with recordings for routine announcements

Not sure about Paddington, but within Wales the aim is a fully bilingual service link.
(Albeit seems rather slow progress, I did the project about 10 years ago so that the journey planner would accept station names in either English or Welsh for any station in GB (not entirely trivial to establish if there is definitely not a Welsh language name for an English place) - little oddities, like you don't translate 'Parkway' in 'Bryste Parkway', but you do translate 'Road' in Dingle Road / Heol Dingle )

[kanga]

Hi Kanga

.. Anyway, the BA approach was not only disappointing to me as a language nerd, but struck me as poor customer service; unfortunately, it may be typical of companies which while having an international footprint are based in a monolingual anglophone culture.

I’m afraid I have to mildly disagree to some extent with your conclusion, which I highlighted in bold.

BA used to ..

It also used to be the case that British Airways would expect all cabin crew to have a second (and possibly third/fourth?) language. But now BA cabin crew are recruited on terms lower than an individual working on the checkout at your local Asda.

...

Oh, I absolutely agree that things have changed. When we lived in Switzerland during my childhood, the BEA cabin crew (almost invariably British) used to make cabin announcements (no recordings!) in impeccable (but British-accented) French, and I often heard them speaking German as well. I had had no recent experience of BA (or Virgin) long-haul except to USA before this Sydney flight. On Canadian flights to/from UK (and domestic), with Air Canada or Wardair, announcements were, of course, bilingual, including from flight deck crew; although ISTR that in '60s the regional (Eastern Provincial) used only English on flights between Gander and Goose Bay. My only recent BA short-haul, LGW to/from Tirane, had announcements in English only, with no indication that any of the cabin crew (all seemingly British) knew any other languages; perhaps unsurprisingly, as few foreigners know any Albanian Older (Communist era) Albanians are more likely to have learnt French or Italian (and some, natively, Serbo-Croat or Greek) in school than English, though.

But I'm surprised to hear (correctly ?) that at BA cabin crew aspirants are now not required to know at least one other language to some extent. Perhaps I should not be

[A4 Pacific]

But I'm surprised to hear (correctly ?) that at BA cabin crew aspirants are now not required to know at least one other language to some extent. Perhaps I should not be

If you wish to attract someone with language skills, (or qualifications) you may have to pay more? Not the ‘BA way’ now I’m afraid! (Don’t forget there are multiple layers of huge director’s bonuses to be creamed off!)

Of course if an applicant does speak another language, that’s a bonus.

[kanga]

..
Not sure about Paddington, but within Wales the aim is a fully bilingual service ..
(Albeit seems rather slow progress..)

[my bold]

I do not recall hearing Welsh in loudspeaker announcements at Cheltenham nor Gloucester stations, although some trains do go between them and Wales via Chepstow. It would be nice Perhaps it's used on the trains ..

[I'm not aware of the Welsh for Cheltenham, but there's Caerloyw and Cas-gwent, of course ]

[NDB_hold]

Definitely - common on trains going via Amwythig (sp?) (i.e. Shrewsbury) to Wales to hear announcements in Welsh.

[leiafee]

If indeed true I would be surprised if that was not racial discrimination.

Why racial? We’re not born knowing it through some sort of hive mind genetic memory. You could learn it too if you wanted.

Two Welsh herberts in our mess thought that speaking their language in the company of others was a good idea.

Why in the wide world did you assume you had a moral right to eavesdrop on your colleagues conversation?

[skydriller]

If indeed true I would be surprised if that was not racial discrimination.

Why racial? We’re not born knowing it through some sort of hive mind genetic memory.

"Jeez, the kids here in France are really smart...at 5 yrs old they already speak French better than I can having been here 10 years"

Read the quote I am responding to clearly talking about Locals (ie welsh natives) having a different price to those from outside (ie English visitors/immigrants).

You could learn it too if you wanted.

Try suggesting this if caught giving a lower price for an English speaking person in London and then a higher price for an Asian or African that doesnt speak English... Discrimination based on race isnt black and white (pun intended).

[Bill McCarthy]

@leiafee - We couldn’t help but eavesdrop when in such close proximity with about 20 men in a space 12ft X 10ft - absolutely nothing to do with morals. More that they were guilty of bad manners. Indeed, before that they were warned about communicating between compartments over the back aft Tanoy due to the fact that EVERYONE needs to know what is going on.

[rikur_]

If indeed true I would be surprised if that was not racial discrimination.

Why racial? We’re not born knowing it through some sort of hive mind genetic memory. You could learn it too if you wanted.

I'm not a lawyer, but my layman's understanding it is would be close to being indirect discrimination:

a rule, policy or procedure which, although applied to all equally, particularly (dis)advantages a specific racial group .... when the rule, policy or procedure is applied to them and an ‘objective justification’ cannot be shown for the treatment.

Two Welsh herberts in our mess thought that speaking their language in the company of others was a good idea.

Why in the wide world did you assume you had a moral right to eavesdrop on your colleagues conversation?

May/may not be relevant here, but in national security roles it is common place that all conversations in the workplace must be in English, because of the security risks of collusion between colleagues in another language. In other safety critical environments similar policies can exist for the situational awareness of 'eavesdroping'. But equally there's a lot of case law saying you can't simply have an 'English speaking only' rule in the workplace without good reason.