Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By kanga
#1840628
ISTR from '70s being with our Air Cadets at the outdoor range at RAF Innsworth, which was quite narrow and short with a correspondingly narrow (and not very tall) concrete wall at the target end. The RAF Regiment guys let one (older) Cadet at a time try a Sten, notorious for swinging up and to the side if you're not used to them ..

18 at Staverton was in use at the time. I'm fairly sure I saw a light aircraft on a rather low approach disappear behind and then reappear from behind the wall .. :roll:
By IMCR
#1840629
Coming back for one moment to my earlier post what exactly is a "crossing service". In other words what exactly is the service being provided? In this case no service is available, it is cold, and we have established you can cross, so this implies had there been a service you might have got something more?

I have never come across this. I have frequently crossed in the channel, but have always just asked if they are cold. I wasnt expecting a service and it most cases there isnt one avaialble other than London Info basic, a service which is entirely optional as we all know anyway, and would be available if requested.

So strangely a basic service would be avaialble but just not from whoever the O/P was speaking to.
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By NDB_hold
#1840641
(Sorry, off topic...

@David Wood is correct, there are No Danger Area ranges and ones with a DA, but the latter could be ground only as at Otmoor or could have vertical extent as at e.g. Ash Ranges which are the DAs east of Farnborough.

What @kanga is thinking of is a standard station 25m barrack range. These are NDA ranges and often point alarmingly at the airfield - the Benson one does still. In theory all rounds, even accidental discharges, are expected to be confined by the bullet catcher, but some time ago about 6ft of extra wall was added to them all. You can see it clearly on most of them. I was told this was because a stray round escaped and killed someone miles away hanging out her washing and I’ve faithfully told cadets that ever since, but it could be an ... old wives' tale.)
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By NDB_hold
#1840643
IMCR wrote:Coming back for one moment to my earlier post what exactly is a "crossing service". In other words what exactly is the service being provided? In this case no service is available, it is cold, and we have established you can cross, so this implies had there been a service you might have got something more?

I have never come across this. I have frequently crossed in the channel, but have always just asked if they are cold. I wasnt expecting a service and it most cases there isnt one avaialble other than London Info basic, a service which is entirely optional as we all know anyway, and would be available if requested.

So strangely a basic service would be avaialble but just not from whoever the O/P was speaking to.


Im sure there’s a definition somewhere but basically they clear you to cross and simultaneously stop activity on the ground. Hence it needs an ATCO in contact with the person running the ground activity e.g. the RCO.
By IMCR
#1840647
Ah, so are we saying the service is the ATCO contacting the activity officer and so confirming? However, if it is cold, then this service couldnt be provided anyway, because there would be no activity officer on duty. I also think he had confirmed it was cold so it doesnt make sense. I am simply making the point that "cold" and "service" do not seem to go together.

Of course I accept what you rightly say if it is active, and they let you across because they are willing to suspend activity. This isnt uncommon in the channel for example where some of the zones are large, and there may only be activity in a small part. A crossing will then be given avoiding X and Y or above or not above etc. I fully understand this would be a crossing service.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840673
I'm a bit flummoxed about the by-law thing, and knowing if areas are covered. Call me a coward but I'd tend towards not flying through an active Danger Area, whether I was breaking the law or not.

NDB_hold wrote:I was told this was because a stray round escaped and killed someone miles away hanging out her washing and I’ve faithfully told cadets that ever since, but it could be an ... old wives' tale.)


This sort of thing was featured on a CSI programme if I remember correctly. Someone was killed doing something like hanging out their washing. After a load of forensic stuff they determined the trajectory and found someone had been target shooting in their back garden, something like half a mile away.

Probably stems from the same story which probably goes back many years!
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840683
lobstaboy wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:I'm a bit flummoxed about the by-law thing, and knowing if areas are covered.


Paul, the half mil chart shows which have bye-laws.


Yes, but in 25 years I've never personally made use of that information. ;-)

Maybe I'm just allergic to being shot at.
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By matthew_w100
#1840685
Paul_Sengupta wrote:I'm a bit flummoxed about the by-law thing, and knowing if areas are covered. Call me a coward but I'd tend towards not flying through an active Danger Area, whether I was breaking the law or not.


Me neither. But the CAA have instructed that even accidental incursions are "infringements" and to be MORed. And I'd want the basis for any hot CAP1404 action to legitimate.
By AprilDavy
#1840745
Years ago, when crossing danger areas on Salisbury Plain and being provided with a "crossing service" I assumed I was talking directly to the Range Controller, probably on his VHF handheld, not ATC. I.e., someone with his finger on the trigger, or pretty close to it. This could be when the area was notified as active. So, you call up to see if they can get you across safely because they have direct control over firing.
If the area is not active, then presumably the range controller who would normally talk you through if possible, is having his/her lunch.
If you came too close to an active firing area, then you would expect the same chap to hold fire, and let go with a burst of white stars to warn you off as hopefully they are checking the sky for unwanted objects while they are firing.

So if I was informed it was not active, then I wouldn't expect a crossing service (but still look out for the white stars...).
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By IMCR
#1840774
Yes, this is what I would have in mind of the service to which is alluded - or at least someone in direct contact with range control. As I said earlier "service" is the key word I would have thought. If it is cold - cross, whether a crossing service is available is irrelevant, if it is hot, presumably if you are cleared to cross, great, and if you are given a corss service, even better! A service may not be needed for example if you are cleared to cross not below say 5,000 feet, because this is a way of telling you the activity will all be below said base.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840780
But the OPs point was that it was NOTAMed Active but he decided to call the number and check if that was still the case.


I know, but I believe my point about simplicity still remains: It should not be BOTH active by NOTAM AND inactive by radio at the same time.
The information needs to be clear and consistent and the service needing to cross it needs to be available when active.
Similiary pilots need to be assured that use of such airspace is fully permitted when inactive.

the simplest solution for all parties would be to NOTAM it as active. And then do nothing else, and provide no opportunity for crossing/checking etc. Regardless of whether it was actually being used or not


That is indeed a risk, but it would not be consistent with the CAA's Flexible Use of Airspace goals.

The NOTAM should have read "Danger Area XXX may be active. Ask / monitor [freq] for current status."
The response over the radio should have been: "Danger Area XXX is presently inactive".
And if a pilot needs further clarity if they can cross, the response should have been: "Of course - the airspace has reverted to Class G - uncontrolled".

And not leave someone guessing whether they need to re-route and burn more time and fuel.
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By peter272
#1840787
From today's NOTAM today for the new Caernafon TDA

A danger area crossing service (DACS) or danger area activity information service (DAAIS) will be available during ATC hours of operation from valley radar on 125.225MHZ and telephone number 01407 762241 extension 7461. Outside raf valley ATC hours a danger area activity information service (DAAIS) will be available during ATC hours of operation from Caernarfon radio on 122.255MHZ

This TDA is surface to 3000', so I imagine these are meaty toys. Interesting that outside Valley's hours, a reduced service comes from Caernafon Radio, so information only.