Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Ibra
#1840538
Rob P wrote:
Ibra wrote:Has been any case of "Danger Area crossing incidents" in UK since 1930?


Norseman 70285, 15/12/44

Rob P


Always spot on Rob !

Surely that is bad weather (explains why English Channel is full of DAs), or you mean they hit the big drone from Lydd :lol: ?
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By Rob P
#1840539
One theory that ran for a while was that the aircraft was crossing an area designated for jettisoning ordnance that hadn't been dropped on The Hun by returning Bomber Command heavies.

Rob P
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840575
Is there a way, by reference to electronic mapping systems like Skydemon alone, to ascertain whether or not a particular DA is subject to bylaws?
By RipAndTear
#1840579
I just read this thread and had to lie down! No wonder so many pilots are packing in flying with the tongue twisting and incomprehensible regulations that we find ourselves wrapped in. Since I started flying way back in the seventies, the UK CAA 'map' has changed beyond anyone's wildest dreams and I believe a commenter on a forum board here, mentioned this a few days ago when he returned to flying after 20 odd years.

Not only do we have a complex airspace in the UK, so much that not many from overseas would even dare to venture into, I too have my doubts on whether some of it is there to 'catch us out' rather than just safety. I now need an electronic device to lead me to safety if I venture away from the circuit, 10-15 years ago I did not...however, at one of my 'home' airfields I am at the edge of a MATZ and in between DA's. My second and third airfield are within separate DA's (military as you might expect) and SPTA right on the doorstep with a firing range not a few miles away. Most of the time it isn't an issue and the DACS is pretty good.

IMHO (and for me) the bigger problem is with para drops and low level military helos that often ground any other aerial activity, some when you're on the return leg and you've missed your 'slot time' at your other departure airfield, so things can get a little strained if you're near your fuel reserve limit or need a pee. Only once have I had to land elsewhere and sit in a cafe and wait for the notam end time to release me back to base. I haven't yet been shot down with a stray 150mm shell or had an MOR slapped on me, but I can say you have to be better than 'on the ball' during the week. Weekends - often zero activity.

Thanks to the OP for his answer, but mine would have been simply, DA inactive, cross it. DA active, get a DACS to clear you, if not possible, fly around - sometimes I find it's better to turn around and go home, maybe I am getting complacent in my old age, but I've lived with DA's for the last 20+ years and it doesn't seem like much of a big deal to me.


R&T
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840589
RipAndTear wrote:DA inactive, cross it. DA active, get a DACS to clear you, if not possible, fly around -
R&T


I think that that's basically it, in a nutshell. Well put. And maybe I was being a pussy yesterday but, with the current orgasmic excitement shown by some about airspace infringements (including infringements of DAs, note), I felt that it was sufficiently opaque to warrant caution and further investigation.

And the fact remains (and this was the thought uppermost in my mind as I turned away) was that the DA was Notam's as active and so it was undeniably still there (albeit inactive at that time), a crossing service was explicitly not available, and I wasn't 100% in my mind that some of the dafter purveyors of logic within the CAA might not take the view that entering it in such circumstances represented an infringement. Given my history on the subject of infringements I really don't want to end up as one of the offenders :lol:

Also, having been on the other side of the fence, so as to speak, and witnessed one particular episode of a light aircraft happily blatting across a DA while 81mm mortar rounds were both going up and coming down the implications of being hit by such a projectile are, whilst remote, nonetheless arresting.
By Dominie
#1840590
Rob P wrote:One theory that ran for a while was that the aircraft was crossing an area designated for jettisoning ordnance that hadn't been dropped on The Hun by returning Bomber Command heavies.

Rob P

[/threaddrift] A few years ago on a TV programme there was a Canadian who had been a tail gunner on a returning bomber who claimed to have seen a Norseman in that area that day. As a Canadian he is more likely than most to see such an aircraft and know it was a Norseman, so I tend to believe his story.
By Ibra
#1840594
David Wood wrote:Is there a way, by reference to electronic mapping systems like Skydemon alone, to ascertain whether or not a particular DA is subject to bylaws?


Not that I am aware, unless you dig the AIP text in flight, it's ENR5.1, actually, one reason keep "paper map" it has DA(*) on it which is usually the ones with SI, so not because of old school nav, electronics getting overheated or nationwide loss of RAIM and GPS jamming :pale:

It easy to get familiar with ones nearby having SI in their remarks, so more a problem going elsewhere, Hythe firing range is one example, it has bye-law but still well managed: opening hours MoD website, hot/cold in ATIS, London FIS & Lydd ATC know it and give DAAIS but they can't offer anything to get in you just skip....it's easy to bust it VFR following the cliffs and funny one can still bust it IFR, but to be fair they should probably go-around after half scale deflection of ILS :D

Same thing in France with low level fast flying netwok on weekdays, I kept VFR guide for frequencies: calling wrong ATS units they seem clueless on hot/cold or may give you "not up to date information", the only difference is I don't risk anything on my licenece if I stay alive after flight (except PA areas or ZIT), so it's just risking my life in extreme events: getting hit by a Rafale in flight after his pull up from 300ft agl, which is a risk I am happy to accept...
By Ibra
#1840599
Rob P wrote:One theory that ran for a while was that the aircraft was crossing an area designated for jettisoning ordnance that hadn't been dropped on The Hun by returning Bomber Command heavies.

Rob P


I could beleive that, sometimes **** just happen, reminds me of the Italian airliner that went down after getting caught in missile & dog fight between jet fighters of countries who were not officialy at war, Itavia Flight 780 in 1980, at least in this case it's not just speculation, the jet fighter was found after it crashed in mountain nearby...

Given it was 1500ft cloudbase, which one of the two was flying in IMC the Bomber or the Noresman :D
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By kanga
#1840601
Ibra wrote:..
Has been any case of "Danger Area crossing incidents" in UK since 1930?


ISTR being in the Mess at RAF Valley chatting to a Hawk pilot on a Weapons course. He claimed to have been about to do some air-ground guns firing in a DA when he saw a hangglider traversing what would be his line of fire, and forebore. I don't know if it was written up as an 'incident' in a public domain, though; possibly only in a military record.
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By NDB_hold
#1840607
Ibra wrote:
David Wood wrote:Is there a way, by reference to electronic mapping systems like Skydemon alone, to ascertain whether or not a particular DA is subject to bylaws?


Not that I am aware, unless you dig the AIP text in flight, it's ENR5.1, actually, one reason keep "paper map" it has DA(*) on it which is usually the ones with SI, so not because of old school nav, electronics getting overheated or nationwide loss of RAIM and GPS jamming :pale:


I think SkyDemon should definitely look at this. It should be simple to implement.

One thing I don’t understand is why some small arms ranges have DAs and some don’t. As a qualified range conducting officer I maybe should. E.g. the one at Otmoor doesn’t, yet there is a farm strip nearby and the range orders state that if an aircraft is seen firing should stop...

Maybe it’s to do with the weapon categories permitted on the 904/905.
By IMCR
#1840610
David Wood wrote:OK, so here's a question. I should declare in advance that I now know the answer, having after the event had a telephone conversation with a very helpful guy at the relevant Ops. But I'd be interested to hear other people's interpretations of the issue.

It's a sunny day and you plan a VFR bimble. The route takes you through a Danger Area. So prior to walking out you call up the relevant Ops' telephone number and you ask them for the status of the DA. The helpful chap on the end of the line tells you words to the effect "the DA is NOTAM'd as active to [whatever]. But we can't tell you now whether it will actually be active when you get there. So give us a call on 123.456 when you get close." So far, so good.

Off you go. As you near the DA you call on the relevant frequency to ask if the DA is active and whether or not you can cross. The reply is "D999 is inactive (sic), but we cannot give you a crossing service." You ask whether there is another callsign/freq that can give you a crossing and you are told that there is not.

So, the exam question of the day is: are you OK to cross the DA without further reference? Or, if you do so, are you infringing a DA?


Isnt the key in the words "a crossing SERVICE". You dont necessarily want a service, just confirmation it is inactive, in which case it can be crossed?
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840613
NDB_hold wrote:
Ibra wrote:
David Wood wrote:Is there a way, by reference to electronic mapping systems like Skydemon alone, to ascertain whether or not a particular DA is subject to bylaws?


Not that I am aware, unless you dig the AIP text in flight, it's ENR5.1, actually, one reason keep "paper map" it has DA(*) on it which is usually the ones with SI, so not because of old school nav, electronics getting overheated or nationwide loss of RAIM and GPS jamming :pale:


I think SkyDemon should definitely look at this. It should be simple to implement.



That is a very UK-centric view and is not really for Tim to solve. The problem is that the UK has danger areas where they should really be restricted areas.

Regards, SD..
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840625
NDB_hold wrote:As a qualified range conducting officer I maybe should. E.g. the one at Otmoor doesn’t, yet there is a farm strip nearby and the range orders state that if an aircraft is seen firing should stop...


I haven't run a range for many many moons. However I do recall that some were then in existance as 'no danger area' ranges (30m ranges, pipe ranges and a few of those strange ones with concrete baffles and walls running down their length (mainly in NI and Germany). The rest all had an RDAs (often remarkably small bits of real estate bearing in mind the random distribution of lead practised by the average recruit) based on the somewhat theoretical calculations of some gentleman in the SASC. What always surprised me was the ricochet of tracer which very often would zip off into the sky at remarkable angles of deflection. I was always curious as to whether tracer ricochets differently from ball ammunition, and why it should; or whether some of the ball was similarly ricocheting invisibly; thus rendering the RDA even more academic. Who knows, eh?
By Ibra
#1840627
Indeed, SkyDemon did a pretty good job making load of uncontrolled airspace madness easy to swallow and sure there is room for more innovation and diesgest, the risk is obviously, liability here and there for "nothing" which is how the mess started

We have a gun firing range where we are supposed to shoot on ground targets with 12mm calibre, but what if there is an ircraft flying over? we will surely not hit it and will just stop shooting, some "consultant": stats & comon sense is not enough when it comes to liability, you need a proper risk mitigant, ok we will have DA with times published on oir board, it's not notamed but will be active, you can go without clerance but you need a crossing information service from ATC :lol: