[IMCR]

The aircraft manufacturer confirmed that during type certification flight testing, the B200 had been tested with the right outboard flap fully down at 100% (35°), whilst the other three flaps were fully retracted. In this condition, which is more severe than if just the right inboard flap had been fully deflected, a 27.5 lb control wheel force and 35% aileron deflection were sufficient to maintain lateral control. Aileron trim was sufficient to cancel all out‑of‑balance rolling moments and full stalls in this configuration were satisfactory.

One such from a asy situation that unfortunately did not end well.

[TopCat]

Perhaps I didn't explain clearly enough.

Appreciate your coming back to elaborate

One of the biggest killers in the history of aviation, and one which refuses to go away, in is an inadvertent stall/spin at low altitude, usually this is the base to final turn. Often if the turn is overshot, the stall/spin happens when trying to re-align with the runway. But really anytime the aircraft is low and slow, the need to apply back pressure should be something which lights an amber warning in the mind.

Absolutely.

I am not advocating anything radical, trimming should be done wings level for a particular airspeed.

Phew... I can wind my neck in

All I am saying is that if the aircraft is trimmed for a particular speed on a base leg final in the descent, then as you bank you should be conscious that you are in the corner of the angle-of-attack envelope, and too low to recover if you were to stall/spin. So build in the ability to recognise pulling back on the stick as a threat.

Very much agree with this too.

.....The aircraft is already yaw/roll coupled and right in the corner of the envelope. Then, while still holding back pressure, the airrcaft is rolled the opposite way, to line up with the runway. The down going aileron adds the final kick.

Yep.

So, to avoid being in a situation where you are banking and pulling, always trim for the correct base to final speed, and if you feel any back pressure, gently (the word is gently) unload it as you roll into a turn.
Build muscle memory so that it feels just "wrong" to be holding any back pressure in the base to final turn.

This is where we diverge a bit (my bold).

Consider a level turn. Assuming you start trimmed from straight and level, some back pressure is needed as you roll into the turn, and it needs to be held in order to remain level in the turn. This is because you need enough extra alpha to ensure that the vertical component of the lift is still equal to the weight.

At constant rate of descent (eg trimmed on base), the aircraft is not accelerating vertically. So the upwards forces still balance the downwards ones*. So just as in a level turn, the descending turn on to final needs some some back pressure to maintain that constant rate of descent, and for the same reason. If you don't add back pressure in the turn, the rate of descent will increase, just as it would in a level turn.

Now of course, base leg is a 1G manoeuvre, flown significantly slower than cruise. So of course if you're rolling into the base-to-final turn you need to be more careful as you're closer to the stall than in the cruise.

I know you know all this stuff, but I think it's wrong to build the expectation that turning on to final should involve no additional back pressure as you turn.

The point is that it shouldn't involve too much. Rather than teaching people bad descending turn technique, it would be better to tell people that aren't able to feel the difference between 'just enough' and 'too much', to limit their angle of bank to 15 degrees in the base-to-final turn, and to go around if they aren't going to get back to being lined up.

____
* up = vertical components of lift and drag; down = weight, plus downward component of thrust.

[MichaelP]

I’ve always taught people to trim correctly and not to fly out of trim either way.

At any time I will ask the student to let go of the controls and expect there to be little or no change.
Sure in a descending turn there is a certain amount of back pressure, but when this is released there should be no ‘dramatic’ change.

Any time you have to put effort into operating the controls through being out of trim there is a chance of over control.
Proper trimming means you can give proper guidance to the aircraft.
If you’re getting a little slow, let go and the properly trimmed aircraft will find its own speed.

There is one situation where it is safe to fly ‘out of trim’, and that is when you are playing silly buggers low over the water or even trying a bit of water skiing.
In this situation a little nose up trim is useful for when you begin to be mesmorised. Relax and the aeroplane will rise from peril.
Probably better to not have to do this....

As for the four forces, often they are depicted incorrectly with Thrust, Drag, Lift, and Weight being of equal lengths for an aeroplane in level flight
This is incorrect.
For a conventional, aeroplane (not a canard), the lift vector is longer than the weight vector, while the thrust and drag vectors are much shorter.

Why is the lift vector the longest?

[neilcharlton]

I've just built a dead switch box for our aircraft. Contains 4 switches for take off and 4 for landing. The idea being once you flick the switch the item is complete. These are critical don't mess up items like lower landing gear !
Bush pilots use them all the time - see vid :

[TopCat]

For a conventional, aeroplane (not a canard), the lift vector is longer than the weight vector, while the thrust and drag vectors are much shorter.

Why is the lift vector the longest?

I think you need to be a little more specific. If you're referring to level flight, then presumably you mean "why is the lift vector from the wings the longest"?

In level flight at constant airspeed, you can't escape from the total lift being equal to the weight. Nor from the total drag being equal to the total thrust.

If you want to start explaining why you want to have the CG as far back as possible for minimum tailplane drag, then fine. But perhaps that should have a separate thread.

It really doesn't affect how those that need to worry about the base to final turn should be handling their aeroplane.

[Pilot H]

OK here's another one:

When deciding on a course of action, avoid anything which could lead to an accident report containing the preposition "Despite"....

[Rob P]

containing the preposition "Despite"....

Normally matched with the verb "elected"

Rob P

[patowalker]

I look forward to the next flight, which requires making sure I get this one right.

[MikeE]

Just a few thoughts from real life experiences of others -

@FD mentioned the dangers of press-on-it-is when nearing your destination. This often catches out pilots who have almost completed their flight and have therefore ‘invested’ more than someone who has just taken off. Be aware of this and ask yourself - seriously - if you would continue if you had only just started the flight.

Reconsider if you think, or say “watch this…” before attempting a manoeuvre.

Distraction has been mentioned and it will catch you out. Be aware of its insidious nature and be alert to it happening and respond positively. Plan for distraction. If you are following your plan and become distracted by anything - such as a sick passenger or difficulties on the radio - positively identify that as a distraction and bring your mind back to what you were doing before the distraction occurred:
Think –
1. What was I doing before the event?
2. At what point was I interrupted?
3. How do I get back to where I was?
Half way through a checklist? Start again. Checking position on a chart and your passenger asks what that building is? Start your position check from scratch, do not assume you are where you thought you were.

Have you planned perfectly, to the nth degree? There are potential dangers with complacency. You may have planned to stay well away from controlled airspace, rising ground and so on, but you may have made a mistake in your plans – people do - and then ignore warnings from SkyDemon or other clues that alert you to danger because ‘you know you are nowhere near’ the hazard.

Delayed getting away and rushing a bit to catch up? This can lead to problems, especially if plans have been made to meet someone or you have a passenger you don’t want to disappoint. These external factors that put time-related pressure on the pilot have been found to be a major cause of GA accidents. In these circumstances pilots will fly into conditions they would not normally try and make shortcuts they would not normally consider.

Unfamiliar aircraft, instruments or avionics? An aircraft in flight is not a good schoolroom. Familiarise yourself with everything before taking off.

Alongside Minimum Safe Altitude also plan Maximum Safe Altitude. Go along your planned route and make sure you know where the vertical airspace starts, even if you do not plan to go anywhere near it.

Best wishes

Mike

[Rob P]

Ah but don't forget I also used to fly a YAK52.

Yes, I remembered that, indeed flying in that very aircraft.

I have never been able to understand why you since downgraded .

Rob P

[IMCR]

I think in all this is, knowing when its ok to press the limits is important. This is the hard bit. However, if you wrap yourself in cotton wool you probably dont learn.

So back to the original question, take time to fly as often as you can with pilots with more experience whoever they may be. Take the opportunities to push the limits a little harder under their watchful eye. There is nothing like a bit of scud running (I dont mean really low level dangerous stuff) but working around weather lower level, especially with an instrument rated pilot who is ready and able to bale out.

I am a great believer in an aero course, even if you take it no further solo. You learn more about an aircraft and how it behaves in 10 hours than you will in a hundred hours (and probably more) and some of the recovery skills will stand you forever in good stead.

If you like flying more docile aircraft also buy a few hours in something a bit livier (with another pilot current and good on type). Something which properly drops a wing, something with a propoer stall and pronounced nose drop, and something more challenging to land. Again you will learn good skills than will stay with you.

I think the range of challenges in aircraft is immense. If you havent experienced it you will not believe the difference between landing say an Extra, compared with a Piper Warrior. Once you have landed the extra, the Warrior seems easy, and everything seems much slower and you, more in control. A few hours in a twin and many singles seem a lot more straight forward.

These things are all part of the colour of aviation and will make you a better pilot, and will also make you a safer pilot.

In short dont just wrap yourself in cotton wool and end up overly cautious, caution is important as this thread has demonstrated (if this is the right word) but so are experiences done safely, because one day as cautious as you might be, the weather will do something unexpected and catch you out, or the aircraft will play games with you.

[HansGruber]

Never skimp on fuel
Dan Gryders AQP
Mark DMMS on ASI [edit]and train to use it.

Lets be honest, flying is a dynamic experience, it is unrealistic to expect that ANY fixed set of rules can be safe. Pilots need to train to be aware, relaxed, informed, trained(yes, intentional), experienced and open to communication, learning and sharing.
Being 1,000 feet above the ground is a risk (or even 10 feet!), it's also fun. Keep the fun, acknowledge the risk, be best [/edit]