Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1840210
SteveX wrote:One other thing from another thread a while back re. mags. I don't do any mags check or full and free movement until the power and vital checks just before going. This is because in years of flying I've never had to return to parking because of a problem with either of those things. If I did then a whole 10 minutes of my life has been wasted.


It isnt for me to point out that your attitudes not only seem but are cavalier.

Flying into a 500m strip where speedcontrol is essential and choosing to go into that with a non-functioning ASI is cavalier. How did you know that it was not indicating due to a forgotten cover?

Not doing full and free movement and mag checks until you are ready to go is saving really no time and effort but the closer people get to the get going point the stronger the urge to carry on gets.

Most press-on-itis accidents happen near the destination - not at the start of a trip.

But these essential bits of the human performance ABC are probably wasted on you.

Most people need fewer than a 1000 hours to know they don't know it all, some are slower in learning.

Hope you'll be fine as I wish all well, maybe you should do some self-reflection and help yourself too.
PeteSpencer liked this
#1840219
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
SteveX wrote:One other thing from another thread a while back re. mags. I don't do any mags check or full and free movement until the power and vital checks just before going. This is because in years of flying I've never had to return to parking because of a problem with either of those things. If I did then a whole 10 minutes of my life has been wasted.


It isnt for me to point out that your attitudes not only seem but are cavalier.

Flying into a 500m strip where speedcontrol is essential and choosing to go into that with a non-functioning ASI is cavalier. How did you know that it was not indicating due to a forgotten cover?

Not doing full and free movement and mag checks until you are ready to go is saving really no time and effort but the closer people get to the get going point the stronger the urge to carry on gets.

Most press-on-itis accidents happen near the destination - not at the start of a trip.

But these essential bits of the human performance ABC are probably wasted on you.

Most people need fewer than a 1000 hours to know they don't know it all, some are slower in learning.

Hope you'll be fine as I wish all well, maybe you should do some self-reflection and help yourself too.


I said destination WASN'T a 500m strip. I think it was 1000m of tarmac, absolute non-drama. And provided the checks ARE done, and are done whilst actually thinking about them, not just a tick off, then I see nothing wrong at all in only checking the controls once and that is just prior to take off. Another confession, I never check the stall warner. Shock horror! If I did and it didn't work, am I supposed to not fly?
#1840220
flyingearly wrote:
Charles Hunt wrote:Most of this paragraph worries me:

As an aside, if you're renting, it also shows the school that you care about these things. The aircraft I rented yesterday was an absolutely dog; after the lockdown it was caked in the fuselage with grime and mould, the seat cushion was missing, the panel was filthy, the engine ran quite rough in the cruise (which was a known problem) and the throttle was stiff. Not to the point of it being an issue at all, but highlighting the issues to the school at least lets them remain aware that you're noting these things! I wouldn't want to take my wife up in it, because it wouldn't inspire confidence!

But this bit - the engine ran quite rough in the cruise (which was a known problem) - terrifies me. As others have said, read the imaginary accident report. "Despite the rough running engine........."

My advice to you is change rental place now. If the place values you so little that they present you with an aircraft as described they are not worthy of your custom no matter how cheap they are.


It wasn't quite that bad. They have had longstanding 'rough running' reports on this particular engine, but have had had it inspected twice and no issues were found. But then again, it validates my point above: at what point do you force the issue, vs be deferential to someone who 'knows better'. The engineers can't find any issues, but yet it still runs rough.

I was (and am) quite careful with it to be extra sure; it wasn't an issue at lower RPM but around 4000 - 4400 it was particularly noticeable; higher was less of an issue (but equally, might be less noticeable due to the noise).

The aircraft was fine and otherwise sound, just looking a bit sorry for itself and presumably a fairly typical club a/c that is now starting to show its age. Above all is it just needed a good clean.

But, back to the OP please :)


I have had rough running engines.

In one case that comes to mind it was one of those on and off faults. The engineers checked it over three times. All fine, and returned to service. I had had reports from others it wasnt right. After all three checks my own experience was also it was right so I grouned the aircraft. Injectors were taken off and sent to a specialist overhaul company in the States. I cant recall the exact problem now, but they said at some point in the very near future the engine would have quit. Returned to service and the problem never reoccurred. Ok, perhaps the engineers in the UK should have picked it up, but fact is they didnt, and they were and are a very reputable company. They said they didnt have the equipment to take the injectors apart, overhaul and service.

Anyway, taught me a lesson, even if the engineers say all is well, if it is safety critical and you are the pilot it really doesnt matter what they tell you, if you arent happy with it, dont fly it and get it fixed. I know, I know these intermittent faults are the most difficult, but it sounds like yours is continous.

Engines are not designed to run rough, and if it is, sure as hell it isnt right. :D and it is trying to tell you!
#1840222
Don't blindly follow FIS advisories or ATC instructions. Keep a good lookout. Question it and even avoid it in an emergency if you're advised or being vectored into:
- Cloud (for VFR)
- Severe weather like freezing rain and under a CB.
- Terrain
- Other aircraft

Don't be afraid to go-around and don't force the aircraft down on the 3rd attempt as tiring and tempting as it may be.

Use checklists properly. Which also includes: Carb heat, carb heat, carb heat
Last edited by James Chan on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
T6Harvard liked this
#1840223
On ASI example, no reading is better than bad reading, if it's reading zero because one left PT cover, I am sure one can disregard that easily and fly on 2nd newton law: attitude & power !

It's wrong readings that would caught one out, if it's reading near VS with pitch down and cruise power descent you are about to hit VNE, so no point pushing nose down or adding power

It's even more disorientating in glass cockpit when the pitot tube gets clogged, howeer the sound & vibration of high speed descent can't go unoticed...

Many people went down after the vaccum pump failed slowly, most of them could cope well with partial pannel, if they were told to put a post-it on AI

The same as why people fall out of blue sky on base/final leg, I am sure everybody can hold their speed & bank angle but they were getting the "wrong picture" when getting distracted it's different from flying near to the edge of a dynamic stall on purpose while being conscious...
Last edited by Ibra on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1840225
I read Paul Craig's "The Killing Zone: How & Why Pilots Die" to satisfy myself of the risks before I started my PPL course.
T6Harvard liked this
#1840227
As to defective instruments my own view is on a certified aircraft the POH should set out the minimium serviceable equipment list depending on the circumstances - but not always.

In commercial ops this will be religiously adhered to, and as we all know aircraft will and do fly with acceptable defects.

In GA operations I think it is better treated as a guide from which never ever to depart, but sometimes apply an extra degree of caution based on your own levels of experience and an assessment of the conditions you might encounter.

To a degree when it comes to instruments if you are down to whatever is the minimium sods law is something else may fail, so factor in how you will feel if this happens during the flight. :lol:
T6Harvard liked this
#1840246
SteveX wrote: Another confession, I never check the stall warner. Shock horror! If I did and it didn't work, am I supposed to not fly?


Admit that at times you are so crass that it is sometimes difficult to determine whether you are just winding people up or indeed just not very smart.

I will do the smart thing and stop interacting with you on this thread as it might detract from the useful posts others are making.
#1840256
A number of people ask - how do you know that the controls such as aileron are correct which can be important after maintenance? Which way is correct?

This question I resolved by making sure when I check them, I will always turn the stick to the right and pronounce grandly - to you, up yours.....

It always gets a giggle with passengers on board and you remember what the aileron is supposed to do.
JAFO, Hooligan, Skybolt1 and 1 others liked this
#1840260
Ibra wrote:The same as why people fall out of blue sky on base/final leg, I am sure everybody can hold their speed & bank angle but they were getting the "wrong picture" when getting distracted it's different from flying near to the edge of a dynamic stall on purpose while being conscious...


What I noted when flying with a couple of pilots was that their focus, when turning from base to final, was on the position of the runway and they were no longer paying full attention to the position of the nose relative to the horizon - as one person I pointed it out to said, he would never have seen the stall coming, as he focussed on aligning the aircraft onto final. The question is - why do that? Why focus on the runway? It isn't going anywhere!

That is different to and should not be confused with the skidded turn base to final - the video below is my favourite when people ask why the base to final turn can be so deadly....

Ibra, NDB_hold liked this
#1840264
SteveX wrote:Another confession, I never check the stall warner. Shock horror! If I did and it didn't work, am I supposed to not fly?

I usually check the stall warner. Not because I wouldn't fly if it didn't work - I would. I would never rely on its working to prevent a stall.

However, it is an additional final layer of protection that I'd want to know was absent, if it was.

That said, I've had battery and starting problems for a while now, as the aircraft has been flown so little over the last few months. So I've not been switching the master on until I'm ready to go - which means not checking any of the lights, or the stall warner, or the pitot heat. The only thing I've continued to do is a check on the electric fuel pump before cranking the starter, as it's almost impossible to know it's working once the engine is on. Sometimes the fuel pressure goes up a bit if you switch it on if the engine is running, but not by much.

The thing about some types of known issues, isn't that they necessarily make it dangerous to fly, but they may justify reevaluating what else you might do or not do.

someone other than SteveX wrote:stuff about flying with a rough running engine

Routinely flying with an engine known to be running rough does sound a bit bonkers to me, however. That would be way outside my personal risk profile.

Top tip: if an engine is showing easily reproducible problems, and the engineers can't find out what's wrong, that's two problems, not one.
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