[Andrew Sinclair]

FD , never trust a 'pooter ....
Brand new 1/2 mil chart , bought today ; says London Info in the West still 124.750..

rgds condor

So won’t trust a computer but will trust a half-mill chart which is likely out of date for most of the year due to ongoing changes.

Oh but the changes are listed on a errr website where you get read them by using a err ‘pooter. I suppose a broken watch is right twice a day.

Oh the irony

[Full Metal Jackass]

Call Exeter Tower, they will give you SVFR crossing at FL85 in theory it should not happen as SVFR is only available in CTR, but give it a try and let us know how it goes

With an IR, you can cross it IFR but you will probably need an FPL filed before departure to get that clearance, highly unlikely you can get pop up clearance on en-route segments

VFR will not work, no VFR in Class A !

I dunno how that is squared with my experience when departing Hawarden heading north west towards the Isle of Man back in 2018. I was asked my intentions and replied that I would remain under the CTA at around 2800 - in order to give myself time in case of engine failure; the controller actually came back and offered me 4000 feet, at which point I queried the decision due to Class A airspace. He indicated that if I could hold a heading and fly direct TIPOD (IIRC), he had no problems with me at that altitude. He also offered me that I could fly higher - up to FL 085 - once an EasyJet flight inbound to Liverpool had crossed me at 5000 feet.

So legally no VFR flight in Class A but it can be offered. Maybe just make a request to London Info to fly between two IFR waypoints at the requested altitude and see how that pans out.....

[GrahamB]

So legally no VFR flight in Class A but it can be offered. Maybe just make a request to London Info to fly between two IFR waypoints at the requested altitude and see how that pans out.....

If you did not hold an IR, your obligation would have been to refuse the offer, as you would by definition be under IFR without the required licence privileges. In my IMCR days I declined the offer of entry into Class A by Cardiff on a couple of occasions when inbound to them IFR.

Normalisation of deviance can be a slippery slope.

[Full Metal Jackass]

So legally no VFR flight in Class A but it can be offered. Maybe just make a request to London Info to fly between two IFR waypoints at the requested altitude and see how that pans out.....

If you did not hold an IR, your obligation would have been to refuse the offer, as you would by definition be under IFR without the required licence privileges. In my IMCR days I declined the offer of entry into Class A by Cardiff on a couple of occasions when inbound to them IFR.

Normalisation of deviance can be a slippery slope.

It was a CAVOK day. But let me get this right: You'd rather refuse the benefits of an additional few thousand feet of altitude than fly in Class A, having been given the option to do so by a controller?

What are the three most useless things in aviation? Ah yes....

Runway behind you
Fuel left in the bowser on the ground
Altitude above you

If the risk was to run into IMC, yes, I'd refuse. But if the conditions are CAVOK and the airspace controller is offering me access, I would likely accept....

[johnm]

Wot @GrahamB sed.....

[GrahamB]

So legally no VFR flight in Class A but it can be offered. Maybe just make a request to London Info to fly between two IFR waypoints at the requested altitude and see how that pans out.....

If you did not hold an IR, your obligation would have been to refuse the offer, as you would by definition be under IFR without the required licence privileges. In my IMCR days I declined the offer of entry into Class A by Cardiff on a couple of occasions when inbound to them IFR.

Normalisation of deviance can be a slippery slope.

It was a CAVOK day. But let me get this right: You'd rather refuse the benefits of an additional few thousand feet of altitude than fly in Class A, having been given the option to do so by a controller?

What are the three most useless things in aviation? Ah yes....

Runway behind you
Fuel left in the bowser on the ground
Altitude above you

If the risk was to run into IMC, yes, I'd refuse. But if the conditions are CAVOK and the airspace controller is offering me access, I would likely accept....

An ATCO can't grant waivers from Part FCL or the ANO. I don't know what the exact airspace structure was at the time, but looking at the chart as it is now, it would have been a minor deviation to route to the west of the Class A and get a clearance through the Class C if 4500' wasn't high enough for you.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

[Ibra]

I dunno how that is squared with my experience when departing Hawarden heading north west towards the Isle of Man back in 2018. I was asked my intentions and replied that I would remain under the CTA at around 2800 - in order to give myself time in case of engine failure; the controller actually came back and offered me 4000 feet, at which point I queried the decision due to Class A airspace. He indicated that if I could hold a heading and fly direct TIPOD (IIRC), he had no problems with me at that altitude. He also offered me that I could fly higher - up to FL 085 - once an EasyJet flight inbound to Liverpool had crossed me at 5000 feet.

So legally no VFR flight in Class A but it can be offered. Maybe just make a request to London Info to fly between two IFR waypoints at the requested altitude and see how that pans out.....

I think for crossing it's less an issue from controller, small width of airways is nothing, asking to fly the airways is different

I would not get into legality debate of taking SVFR clearance that should not be there under ANO/SERA in the first place but if it's CAVOK and I get one I will drive through rather than going up/down: it's crossing 10nm wide ATS route not flying TMA airspace, CTA name for ATS RNAV5 route is actually an odd name but let's not get into that

I think there was a consession for crossing same ATS routes VFR but at the base due to lowest available FL vs altitude for gliders? having been in gliders it's highly unlikely one will stay at the base altitude for 10nm unless it's a cloud street but hey the only reported altitude is gliders is the one you say

If controller did come back with IFR clearance, I could take it as I have the IR but I will think twice if aircraft is "VFR only", gliders can fly CAVOK with no issues while navigating visually in CAS but some are equipped and allowed to fly clouds in Class G but I doubt they can fly legally IFR in Class A & D, unless they have GPS/VOR/DME

[Iceman]

You cannot get an SVFR clearance through anything other than a CTR. This is quite plainly not a CTR so no form of VFR clearance is available, only IFR. If you are not qualified to take an IFR clearance in Class A airspace then you should not be requesting or accepting any clearance, period.

Iceman

[AlanM]

CTA name for ATS RNAV5 route is actually an odd name but let's not get into that

It is an airway, above the CTAs going north of BHD. Essentially it was divided up at lower levels in the good old days of Exeter northbounds vs Bristol/Cardiff southbounds so all the chunks needed to be named accordingly. It made it easier for the creation of a mini TMA NESW around BCN.

[Ibra]

Thanks AlanM !

For SVFR clearances, can one get NUMPO to EXMOR at 4500ft with Cardiff? it's all Class D (no Class A) but probably not fully in vicinity of controlled zone at 4500ft while at 2500ft it should work for SVFR ClassG/CTR/ClassG transit

CTR goes to FL105 and ATZ to 2200ft, technically one will always transit CTR at 2500ft the same way at 4500ft just question of hitting Class G or CTA first...

Can one fly Cardiff to Bristol SVFR at 1500ft? (say visibility is 2km as SERA clouds minima are irrelevant in UK)

If yes, why not Jersey to Cardiff SVFR at 7000ft, or BCN to MULIT at 7000ft, it's the same thing Class D CTR connected to Class G with some CTA in the middle

I am sure that used to work in the old days when CIs were Class A, you depart SVFR and climb 7000ft to Cardiff? who would fly that Channel crossing at 1000ft

[Full Metal Jackass]

An ATCO can't grant waivers from Part FCL or the ANO. I don't know what the exact airspace structure was at the time, but looking at the chart as it is now, it would have been a minor deviation to route to the west of the Class A and get a clearance through the Class C if 4500' wasn't high enough for you.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Here's a screenshot of the actual routing from that day. Departing Hawarden, I contacted the controller and asked for a climb to FL 085 through D and into C airspace once past the boundary of A airspace N864. He offered me an immediate climb to 4000feet which I queried. So he shouldn't, but he did.

Actually, I didn't even need to route further west because I was quite happy to remain at 2800 feet until passing that boundary...

[Lefty]

Being based at Waltham, I’ve heard of people being prosecuted for flying through the London class A areas. They had been offered a clearance which they weren’t entitled to accept.

[JonathanB]

JB will be along soon

I think it’s all been said! Call London Info (or others as mentioned when available) if south of Exeter or Cardiff if to the North. IFR clearances only as it’s Class A. Exeter or London Info can’t grant you access directly - they would need to obtain a clearance from London Control or Cardiff.

[Ibra]

When I had IMC rating, I once got Brecons SID departure from Cardiff, I only noticed that SID takes me into TMA Class A at 5500ft after SkyDemon warning and stayed away but it made fun exchange with ATC when I decided to level off at 4000ft, I was in clouds at 1000ft, I spotted latter while I planned to stay at FL040 all the way from BCN to CPT, AutoRouter did add SID to my FPL with change of level after in the heat of the moment since then, I stopped filling FPL for IFR OCAS on IMC rating just request "IFR omni departure to 4000ft" or "IFR transits or ILS" and went latter on to get an airways IR