Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By gastello168
#1839350
Hello everyone,

I'm planning to purchase a plane (haven't decided yet if I'll be a single owner or group ownership) and I'm wondering if I can hire out my plane in future?

I.e can I advertise my plane online for private hire by other pilots and charge them hourly rate?

I've got a response from CAA below, but I'm still not very clear. I'm new to UK and trying to understand the rules.

A part-21 aircraft can be rented out for private self-fly hire if it has a Certificate of Airworthiness, a valid Airworthiness Review Certificate, and is maintained in accordance with Part-M/ML by an approved Part-CAMO/CAO organisation.

In order for it to be considered non-commercial, the aircraft owner would need to establish a non-equity ownership group and rent the aircraft out that way.


Does this mean that if I'm the owner or I own aircraft share, it cannot be rented out privately?
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By Rob P
#1839353
My reading is that the two paragraphs above are two alternative ways you can rent out an aircraft you own.

Either you maintain the aircraft to commercial standards (pricey)

or

You set it up as a non-equity group.

Rob P
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By irishc180
#1839374
Your life will be much easier if you don't hire it out. I wouldn't hire out my tractor, boat, quad etc etc and an aeroplane is more breakable than those other vehicles.

There is an underrated joy in a simple one owner flown, well maintained aeroplane. It doesn't even have to be an expensive one either...
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1839379
Stay as a single owner and definitely don't hire it out !
Also with aircraft the best group is a group of one! There is never any arguments or hassle, the aircraft is flown,treated and maintained in the condition you want it to be in and it is always available when you want to fly!
Having your own aircraft is like having a wife...for sure they are expensive and sometimes temperemental but you wouldn't share her would you?
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By DavidC
#1839382
Just to play devils advocate - how many hours a year will you fly it? I fly our share about 40 hours per year so it would be pretty costly if I was the sole owner. A well run group also distributes the various admin and maintenance tasks across many shoulders. Surprise maintenance bills and upgrades are much less of a shock. The trade off is 100% availability and choice of upgrades.

Success of group ownership seems to depends more on the mix of pilots in a group than the aircraft itself.
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By peter272
#1839383
DavidC wrote:Just to play devils advocate - how many hours a year will you fly it? I fly our share about 40 hours per year so it would be pretty costly if I was the sole owner. A well run group also distributes the various admin and maintenance tasks across many shoulders. Surprise maintenance bills and upgrades are much less of a shock. The trade off is 100% availability and choice of upgrades.

Success of group ownership seems to depends more on the mix of pilots in a group than the aircraft itself.


All good points. Some groups are very good, but I've seen and been part of very disfunctional ones.

The group I'm in at the moment is losing members, mainly through age and infirmity, but I'd not expand the group beyond the current membership.

We're a bit of a 'tontine'; the last man standing gets the aircraft.... and the running costs :twisted:
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By DavidC
#1839389
I was quite pleasantly surprised to hear our aircraft maintenance engineer say that his customers have been getting younger recently.

Not a miraculous anti-aging cure, just an observation that there is some younger blood refreshing the ranks. We’ve swapped two shares in our group recently and dropped the average age significantly in the past year. Both seem to be keen and competent.

So there is an alternative...
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By Miscellaneous
#1839390
DavidC wrote:Success of group ownership seems to depends more on the mix of pilots in a group than the aircraft itself.

All very true, however there is a significant difference between group ownership and hiring one's aircraft out. :wink:
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839400
If you do choose to rent out your aircraft you must expect that it will, without doubt, be abused, broken and trashed by the renters - who may not report any critical damage that might occur. You must therefore factor the cost of these repairs and refurbishments into your hourly charge. By the time you’ve done this (accurately) your pricing will be uncompetitive.

By all means buy a fleet of aircraft for rental. Just accept that your own use aircraft will frequently be grounded due being trashed by renters. Have ever seen how renters treat rental cars ??

By the way, if you do rent out your aircraft, to be legal, when you fly it, you will have pay the same hourly rate as the renters, and charge yourself VAT.

Not something to entered into with considerable research and forethought.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839403
The group I'm in at the moment is losing members, mainly through age and infirmity, but I'd not expand the group beyond the current membership.

We're a bit of a 'tontine'; the last man standing gets the aircraft.... and the running costs :twisted:


That sounds so familiar. :wink:
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839404
By the way, if you do rent out your aircraft, to be legal, when you fly it, you will have pay the same hourly rate as the renters, and charge yourself VAT.


The current annual turnover threshold for VAT registered businesses is £85000p.a.
Below this level it is not necessary to register for VAT.

If you do register for VAT you may reclaim the full input costs of VAT on fuel, maintenance, hangarage, landing fees, and any other related business expenses (including the purchase price of the aircraft if applicable) so registration is largely cost neutral if the business is non profit making and run at cost.
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By Rob P
#1839405
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Stay as a single owner... with aircraft the best group is a group of one!


That's a massive generalisation that does not hold good for every, or I suspect most, circumstance.

I owned the RV-4 singly. I owned the RV-6 singly, then sold a half of it to my present co-owner. It flies more, the maintenance, administration and costs are halved and there has never in four or five years been an hour where I wanted to go flying and couldn't

Affording the aircraft isn't an issue, I could go back to sole ownership tomorrow without blinking a financial eye (though I'd have to assassinate someone who has become a good friend first)

"The only good group... etc" is one of the time worn phrases repeatedly heard in aviation, repetition of which does not make any more true

Rob P
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By Sooty25
#1839410
gastello168 wrote:Hello everyone,

I'm planning to purchase a plane (haven't decided yet if I'll be a single owner or group ownership) and I'm wondering if I can hire out my plane in future?

I.e can I advertise my plane online for private hire by other pilots and charge them hourly rate??...?


Sir, unless you are a carpenter looking to get into tool hire, it is an AEROplane. :roll:
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839441
Image

If you create a flying club, perhaps the membership of that club can be ‘non equity shares’.

As the years pass our freedoms are eroded as more rules are created to give the meddlers we employ as civil servants something to achieve.

I am the polar opposite of many private owners in that I rented my aeroplanes to all who had enthusiasm, and who were properly checked out.
Yes, there was the odd bad apple, and the odd bit of trouble. A broken propeller, an aeroplane abandoned in a field, and I am aware of being short changed...
But I never base rules on the worse offenders rather I base them on the best of people. I don’t believe in punishing the many for the few bad characters. I am not a politician.

In my time rental was one thing, training another.
For training you definitely had to have a Public Transport CxA with the maintenance rules that required, including 62 day checks. This was expensive, but I had a licenced engineer on board. You absolutely need a maintenance shop under your control, as soon as you have to involve a third party maintenance company all is lost.

I never worried about engine hours running out, the sooner the better!
Put an engine in the aeroplane worth more than the resale value? Not a problem, the aeroplane would pay it back over time.
Condors paid their investment off in two years, I had a five year plan for the Slingsby.

I am considering doing it again.
It’s a lot of fun flying ‘different’ aeroplanes, and sharing this with others.
Providing such a service is important to the future of what we do.
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