Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839476
As I shall either be 94 or dead in 2041 I don't think I shall be all that worried about CAT 3 arrivals :-)
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839485
johnm wrote:@PeteSpencer they'll just blame pilot error :roll:

Quite where this takes us all is not entirely clear because the overall systems are already set up and the focus is on a growing set of added value and military/security services as well as considering how the vulnerabilities might be addressed.

For the UK to go it alone on this is frankly a bit daft. The role of the 5 eyes might have merit in some aspects because there the issue is all about managing threats from Eastern Europe, China, Indian subcontinent and South America. However co-operation with the Galileo EGNOS programme would get those tools deployed a great deal quicker than the proposed DIY approach and with less reliance on the USA which could well be back in Trump's hands in four years time....



I suppose what I’m thinking is what is the point of continuing to spend several hundred squids every year maintaining an IR rating when I haven’t actually used it since the last renewal and future opportunities are shrinking away fast .

Even more than @johnm I’m very much in the twilight of my flying career and am now rapidly taking the view ‘what the ‘kin point?’ :roll:
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839493
I have flown no serious IFR trips since Alderney in March 2020 when I used the LPV in earnest and not for the first time. I renewed last September just in time for everything to start going to hell in a handbasket and I doubt I'll fly a serious airways trip this year unless I get to go up to Scotland in the Autumn.

I am beginning to wonder where I go from here at my age (nearly as old as @PeteSpencer :D ) Up to now I've tended to take the view that as long as I can pass a class 2 medical and an IR reval I'll keep going but after the last year with the leaving of EASA and the Covid fiascos I'm increasingly doubtful about carrying on :(
By BoeingBoy
#1839497
Likewise I maintain my full IR (because I've had one since 77) but probably only use it in my Archer less than a handful of times a year. And then mostly only enroute in Class A airspace.

Whilst I appreciate all the political and economic arguments surrounding this matter, I have to ask just how many people are really going to go out and use LPV minima over LNAV in the average UK GA fleet every day.

I've just looked at the charts for Gloucester. Blackpool. Liverpool and Gatwick. None publish LPV minima but the limits for LNAV are such that if you really needed LPV I have to ask why you were flying in the first place.

Commercial interests are different but even then we're talking about one or two airports with one or two third level operators being affected on a handful of days per year.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839499
@BoeingBoy by that logic we might as well switch off all the ILS and save a fortune....
By BoeingBoy
#1839508
You miss my point.

If you're operating a small airliner into a regional airport LPV minima has relevance. Given the number of PBN approaches forecast to be available in the UK in the next ten years the whole problem is simply relevant to a handful of individuals who operate aircraft largely at the top end of the GA market.

Hopefully before we really find ourselves unable to use ILS the political and economic issues will have been solved.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839509
Sooty25 wrote:@Flyin'Dutch' I fully understand and respect that we will never see eye to eye on any subject remotely related the the EU and the UK leaving it. It's probably got something to do with our origins.

Two words answer your query, "money" and "control". The variable of "timing" can be added if you like, but that will cover most of it.

I don't intend to be the one that drags this post to political lockdown, so will engage no further.


Feel free to fill my inbox with your cogent argument as I am genuinely interested how people can square those circles.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839511
CloudHound wrote:There aren't any LPV200 approaches on the mainland yet. Walney Island is in progress from LPV which has a 250' system minima.

I've compiled this rough list recently
A very quick trawl through the UK AIP. I've only listed CAT A and missed out LNAV/VNAV due time constraints.

(details snipped)


Your list is showing OCA's when OCH is actually what we're really discussing here.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839512
BoeingBoy wrote:You miss my point.

If you're operating a small airliner into a regional airport LPV minima has relevance. Given the number of PBN approaches forecast to be available in the UK in the next ten years the whole problem is simply relevant to a handful of individuals who operate aircraft largely at the top end of the GA market.

Hopefully before we really find ourselves unable to use ILS the political and economic issues will have been solved.


I know a fair few SEP pilots, me included, who will fly system minima in anger, indeed I used to fly the ILS into Cambridge in bad weather on a regular basis using my IMCR. I have also flown the LPV into Alderney at minima more than once. We need to get our heads round SEPs being a mode of transport in Europe as they are in the USA and Australasia and elsewhere....
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By CloudHound
#1839533
Your list is showing OCA's when OCH is actually what we're really discussing here.

Sorry GrahamB I've been battered by others on here to fly QNH approaches :roll:
Just subtract the height of the threshold above sea level for OCH

Take Barra for instance................. :lol:
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839538
IMNSHO Galileo is an excellent investment as it secures key facilities for Europe independent of Russia, the USA and China and opens the opportunity for added value. The UK going it alone makes rather less sense.
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By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1839547
I know one Scottish commercial operator who is quite worried about dispatch rate with the loss of LPV at the various small Scottish airports. At certain times of the year, some communities will be close to being cut off.
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By Sooty25
#1839601
CloudHound wrote:
Personally, I'd rather see the creation of "UKAS". Lets face it, we have the technology and ability to do it.

Sooty - it's just around the corner.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/space-based-pnt-programme
If 10 to 15 years is the accurate view from industry then we need EGNOS as an interim measure to fill the gap.


We'd probably already have it if we hadn't bankrolled EGNOS and everything else.

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