Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1838661
Rob P wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:Oh, and don’t settle for anything you aren’t totally over the moon with!


After about 18 months of not flying whilst looking for something I was totally over the moon with I gave up and settled for an ageing PA-22 108 in a newly-formed and less than solvent group.

There followed nine or ten years of the most enjoyable and convivial flying you could imagine. Something I hadn't anticipated when I joined the group on an "It'll do for the time being" basis.

Just saying.

Rob P

I was going to add to the chat, but @Rob P beat me to it. The flying in said Shiny Colt (which celebrates its 60th anniversary of being registered new in the UK in June) remains thoroughly enjoyable and convivial and for an aircraft on an ARC, probably as cheap flying as you're likely to get (currently £65 per month and £65 an hour (wet)), so perhaps it might be sensible to cast your net a little wider?

Hopefully a member of this forum will shortly be joining the syndicate to discover the joys for himself... :D

Ian
#1838668
Thanks for all your replies. If anything, this has also been a lesson to be careful with my words!

For a bit of clarity, what I was trying to say at the start was that I'd like to fly as reasonably affordably as possible on an hourly basis, but what I wasn't clear about what was I would include in that cost.

I would expect to pay landing fees separately, and I'm happy to pay a slightly higher monthly fee (say £100 - £150), but I'd like my 'per hour' cost to be as low as possible as this is the thing that is the barrier to me flying. I currently pay £109/hr for a C42 rental (plus a small monthly membership) and so I'm only able to fly 3 - 4 hours a month within my budget, or 2 - 3 flights. Flying twice a month just doesn't quite scratch the itch!

My hope was that if I could find something that's lower - as close to £50/hr - I'd end up flying more, because 'going flying' could be more impromptu and less of a chunky cost - I'd end up flying 5 - 10 flights a month and more hours.

The C42 I rent sips fuel at around 12lph, so perhaps I have been spoilt. But if I have to spend £65 an hour, or £70 an hour, the point is it's still noticeably cheaper than my current rental rates. I don't want to be paying £100+ an hour to fly, is what I was trying to say, because I wouldn't be able to fly any more often.

Anyway, several people have been in touch to point me towards potential shares that may be becoming available, so I'll pursue those. At the end of the day, I can wait and continue adding to my savings over time - so if I don't find anything now, time should enable a wider range of options, but that's only if initial share price is the barrier.
lobstaboy liked this
#1838673
@flyingearly

One thing no one has mentioned is why the £50ph?

How many hours can you therefore afford?

I am in a PA28 group, £70 per month, £100 ph wet.

If you have £200 per month disposable, you can choose between 4 hours at £50, or 2 at £100.

I think there is a group above that split it £85 / £85

If it’s because you have £50 per month available then you need to be realistic.

What I’m hearing is this:

If it’s going to be 3 axis, it HAS to be something that doesn’t actually exist at my price point, therefore I’ll try 2 axis, if I don’t like that, I’ll give up.

I personally wouldn’t like to fly a flex wing, so I get it that you have a personal taste about what you’d like to fly.
(Though mine is nothing to do with aesthetics)

If it were me, I’d be going nuts making sure the figures worked and then trying to set up the group I wanted to exist.

Covid has stopped many things happening, I think that would be easier post Covid
#1838677
@flyingearly

I think there are a lot of people on here flying less than 48 hours per year.

I think you’ve lost a lot of people there by saying that’s just not enough.

I too would like to fly at £50 ph, so I can fly more than 48 hours per year!

I didn’t realise you were flying that much, with a flying budget of over £6000 pa

I think most people were coming at it from the point of view that you couldn’t afford it, not that you wanted it that way round.
You could never land in a flex wing with that sort of budget!
#1838680
Grelly wrote:It's worth going to the airfields within travelling distance and checking the notice boards. My impression is that shares are often not advertised beyond the airfield.

Shoreham recently put up the charges for posting on the notice board. Result = no notices.

I agree with a couple of comments above that this is a bad time to be looking for a share. Wait a month or two until airfields open up a bit and viewings / test flights can take place.
Last edited by Tall_Guy_In_a_PA28 on Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1838689
Much wisdom (and realism) already posted in reply to OP :thumright: but I'd add:

OP has 'contacted' but has not joined LAA (national, I assume, and) local Strut; and also claims to be happy enough with 'mechanical' things to contemplate building (at least from a kit). Both good starts.

It might, then, be a useful further initiative actually to join both national LAA and local Strut (or more than one). Go to meetings (especially when they cease having to be virtual ones!). Introduce yourself ('lean in' in the ghastly US management-speak which a certain truth nevertheless underlies). Volunteer (unashamedly, proactively, frequently) in both aviation and social ways: offer to host a Strut summer BBQ when that is again allowed ? Offer articles, photos or even to edit the Strut newsletter/website ? Help with hosting (organisation and on the day: admin, refreshments, photography, ..?) Strut fly-ins; and if they've not traditionally done one, suggest it ? And most importantly (claiming to be mechanically competent), let it be known that you're happy to help Strut members who are sole or small group powners with all the (many) maintenance/repair/fettling jobs which require an extra pair of hands.

What you may reasonably expect: the occasional ride in various types for yourself and family (obviously, proactively offer to cost-share): useful experience, and both OP and family members may discover that something looking flimsy to be worth considering actually offers a very pleasant flight experience; or, indeed, that something looking more impressive doesn't - both useful to discover :wink: There may even be offered a ride to the Rally, which should obviously be visited anyway. The Rally is also something for help at which volunteers (individuals or Strut groups) are very welcome; camping onsite is available!

After several decades of renting, and usually doing little more than the then 5h/year P1 then required, I decided to try to find a share when the Revalidation rule went up to the '13h in 2nd year'. I found it purely on the airfield grapevine, found that many members were in (then) PFA although group was of 2 CofA types, and joined both National and Strut. I found both memberships both useful (instructive through magazine, meetings and interactions) and enjoyable. I carried on with group flying for a further ~20 years, until I hung up my headset

Good luck!
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#1838707
Rob P wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:Oh, and don’t settle for anything you aren’t totally over the moon with!


I moved from Oxfordshire and had to leave the Yak 52 group there.

After about 18 months of not flying whilst looking for something I was totally over the moon with I gave up and settled for an ageing PA-22 108 in a newly-formed and less than solvent group.

There followed nine or ten years of the most enjoyable and convivial flying you could imagine. Something I hadn't anticipated when I joined the group on an "It'll do for the time being" basis.

Just saying.

Rob P


Anyone who doesn’t love a Colt, doesn’t have a heart. (With the obvious caveat that the third wheel is at the less desirable end of the airframe!) :roll: :lol:

But for someone who doesn’t have much experience, yet apparently strong views on what might be personally ‘acceptable’, they could indeed be tempted to plump for something they’re not totally convinced by in the hope it would grow on them. If they then never really get to like the machine they opt for, that could lock them in to a sub-optimal experience and virtually end their flying dreams.

Now for my personal opinion! In that situation, I’d rather keep my options open, because as I said, I wouldn’t be too surprised to see an upswing in people divesting themselves of toys over the coming year or two?

Just saying.


To add:

I’m absolutely blessed to fly a lovely aeroplane that does indeed cost me ‘around’ £50-£60/hr. However with the fuel alone costing 30 of those pounds, what that means is, my hangarage is cheap, and I fly a lot of hours. Both of which mitigate my standing charges.

If I flew less, my hourly rate would climb.
kanga liked this
#1838709
kanga wrote:Go to meetings (especially when they cease having to be virtual ones!). Introduce yourself ('lean in' in the ghastly US management-speak which a certain truth nevertheless underlies). Volunteer (unashamedly, proactively, frequently) in both aviation and social ways: offer to host a Strut summer BBQ when that is again allowed ? Offer articles, photos or even to edit the Strut newsletter/website ? Help with hosting (organisation and on the day: admin, refreshments, photography, ..?) Strut fly-ins; and if they've not traditionally done one, suggest it ?


The chap just wants an aircraft share for some relatively inexpensive flying. He's given no indication that he wants to spend his time doing the things that you suggest.
#1838714
As I CFIT wrote:
kanga wrote:Go to meetings (especially when they cease having to be virtual ones!). Introduce yourself ('lean in' in the ghastly US management-speak which a certain truth nevertheless underlies). Volunteer (unashamedly, proactively, frequently) in both aviation and social ways: offer to host a Strut summer BBQ when that is again allowed ? Offer articles, photos or even to edit the Strut newsletter/website ? Help with hosting (organisation and on the day: admin, refreshments, photography, ..?) Strut fly-ins; and if they've not traditionally done one, suggest it ?


The chap just wants an aircraft share for some relatively inexpensive flying. He's given no indication that he wants to spend his time doing the things that you suggest.


I'm happy to do whatever it takes. Equally, I'm happy to adjust my expectations, change my budget or whatever is required to get flying. Well, everything except fly a Thruster :lol:

Cessna571 wrote:@flyingearly

I think there are a lot of people on here flying less than 48 hours per year.

I think you’ve lost a lot of people there by saying that’s just not enough.

I too would like to fly at £50 ph, so I can fly more than 48 hours per year!

I didn’t realise you were flying that much, with a flying budget of over £6000 pa

I think most people were coming at it from the point of view that you couldn’t afford it, not that you wanted it that way round.
You could never land in a flex wing with that sort of budget!


Sorry, I did say my choice of words was quite clumsy!

I'm able to devote a healthy £500 a month to flying every month, give or take a bit more when I'm feeling flush or perhaps have been lucky enough to get a small bonus at work, perhaps slightly less when feeling tight or when Christmas is killing me.

With my current rates, plus landing fees, plus monthly club membership (and ignoring Covid), I eat up that budget in a couple of flights. But put a different way - if I fly twice then I can't fly a third time because I'll exceed my budget - as a 1 hour rental is a minimum of £124 (£109 + £15 landing fee). And yet, this is on 12 lph (if that, if I fly more economically at 70 knts).

At £1.25/litre, my thinking was anything sipping less than 24 lph is costing £30 a fuel, so once you add on an engine fund and a bit extra, you'd be in the £50 - £60 territory. £100 a month within a bigger syndicate would cover hangarage and insurance quite readily (but maybe I'm wrong).

What I'd like is for the ability to look out of the window, see it's a nice afternoon, check the diary to see if the aircraft is booked and then go for a quick bimble after work, that's all, knowing that there is no real pressure to get back by a certain time, or that I have to limit myself to an hour because it's costing me £109/hr.

Basically, to make flying less planned, more opportunistic, where a short 30 minute flight is 'worth my while' (as it were), or where an unplanned longer flight is equally satisfying rather than looking at the clock and counting down £1.50 every minute.

I remain confident that such groups exist elsewhere in the UK; it's just the SE I'm struggling, but very happy to volunteer, get involved and do whatever it takes to make it happen.
#1838718
flyingearly wrote:I'm happy to do whatever it takes. Equally, I'm happy to adjust my expectations, change my budget or whatever is required to get flying. Well, everything except fly a Thruster :lol:

Then compromise on the distance short term until something else comes up and go have a look at the Skyranger you linked. All boxes ticked, including well inside your budget and only compromising on a non flying element of distance.

Dismissing this for the sake of 15/20 mins is not indicative that you will do whatever it takes.

That way you compromise, but fly.

Holding out until something closer comes along is itself a compromise.

Achieving all you want and being totally over the moon is not being realistic, in the short term, IMO.
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