Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1838502
First off, happy Easter! Long waffly post coming, but would really appreciate your advice.

Since getting my licence 18 months ago, amidst sitting on the ground in lockdown, or waiting for airfields to dry out, I've been rather desperately trying to find a share of something affordable within ready reach of me.

Context: based Sevenoaks (so, Rochester, Biggin, Redhill, Headcorn closest locations), NPPL(A) with microlight rating, currently renting C42 from club I learnt with. I've got a modest £5k sitting and waiting in the bank (with a little bit more if I need to stretch) and aim to get my SSEA 'upgrade' before summer. Looking for something 2-seater, 3-axis, that looks like a proper aircraft :) but critically wanting to fly something with as low hourly rate as possible (sub £50), permit or LAA-type, so Jodel, Skyranger etc.

In spite of checking Afors, Flyer, GA forums, Plane-check etc several times daily - and even posting my own ad trying to find others in a similar position - absolutely nothing has come up that fits the bill:

    There's a reasonable trickle of whole a/c for sale but beyond the budget and requiring a co-ordinated purchase with others (£25k +)
    There's a slower trickle of shares coming on the market easily within my budget, but absolutely nothing anywhere near me - and shares at those airfields don't seem to come up very often
    There is a reasonable deluge of flex-wings, although I'm in the market for 3-axis
    There is a very low drip-drip feed of single-seater SSDR, or part-build SSDR kits, which doesn't ticke the box
Given I have now been looking for pretty much a year, I'm starting to think of alternative options to move forward as I'm a bit worried my search will be fruitless and I'll be in the same position in 12 months time. Even if something comes up, my assumption is that I will face competition (I'm still under 100 hours P1, but hopefully will be there by the end of the year).

Looking at Afors now, I've managed to go as far back as mid-2016 and there is only 1 share advertised in that timeframe - and that was just over an hour's drive from me. Lots coming up at Old Sarum, Gloucester, Waltham, Popham etc, but the South-East is a bit of a desert.

So, here are the options I'm thinking about. Feedback would be most welcome (questions included):

Option 1: Build something 'cheap' and 'simple' like a Skyranger swift

I actually DO harbour an interest in building my own a/c, or at least refurbishing something, but I couldn't commit to a big project like an RV build, not least because I don't have sufficient long-term space.

However, my thinking was: for around £20k (exc engine) I could buy a Swift II kit, with 300 - 350 hours build time that could be accomplished via a group-build in a consensed few weeks off work between a small group, and then put a refurbed 912 on the front and be flying no frills, something simple, for between £5k and £7k each (4 - 6 people).

Question: is this in any way realistic for a first-time builder?

Question: are there any other a/c that have similar performance, build times and cost to the Skyranger that I should consider? I've found lots of kits at the same price, but with 700 - 800 hours for the build, or kits that come in at £65k+.

Question: if I went down this route, and we assume I could finance the build entirely myself (which I could - I just don't really want to), would I likely have any difficulty selling shares at the end of that process once flying (e.g. one of the challenges is that I can't find many people in the same boat who want to join forces, but if I went it alone and then sold shares at the end, I'd get to the same result).

Option 2: Take a trial lesson in a flex-wing and consider ditching my 3-axis ambitions

Given there seems to be a lot of flex-wings under £5k coming onto the market regularly, is it worth giving up on my 3-axis plans? I could buy myself a flex-wing and be sole owner, go flying whenever I want, but with greater w/x constraints. I could continue to rent the C42 at eye-watering rates when I need to.

Option 3: Continue renting and saving until I've got £10k + to get a share of something more substantial

This isn't really what I want to do - I want low-cost hourly rates to encourage me more often.

I appreciate others will call me names, but I just can't seem to bring myself to consider a Thruster/X'Air etc (at least the Falcon) - they just don't fit my requirement of 'looking like a proper a/c', without wanting to offend others.

Is there anything else I'm missing here? Any other avenues I haven't thought of?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I'm pretty desperate and struggling to find a share, so is it worth building a Skyranger and can I do it in a way that means that a) I can do it reasonably quickly in months rather than years, b) I can involve others either in the build (as future co-owners), or c) build it myself and then recoup my costs (less my own share) by selling shares to others?
Last edited by flyingearly on Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1838515
We've talked about this before, so I don't have a lot to add. But two things strike me from your post that you might like to reflect on:
- you don't mention that you've engaged locally with the flying community/ LAA strut/ clubs. Aeroplanes, and particularly shares, go long before they are advertised in most cases.
- you don't want a Thruster or Xair because they don't look like a "proper" aeroplane, but you are prepared to consider flex-wings. Seriously?
(I see @As I CFIT had the same point)
kanga liked this
#1838517
As I CFIT wrote:To me, the first question is why consider a 2-axis microlight but not something like a Thruster on account of its looks? A Thruster or X'Air arguably looks more like a proper aircraft than any 2-axis machine.


I am absolutely not considering a Thruster or X'Air, I'm afraid - absolutely non-negotiable. Appreciate that this will upset/offend, but it's just not why I learned to fly. I want to take my wife/kids/friends up and they look like someone has stuck a lawnmower onto a tent (sorry, please don't hate me!). I'm sure they are amazing fun to fly, cheap to run and people love them - but I want something that looks as solid as possible.

In an ideal world (which doesn't exist), I'd like a share of something metal. If I lived near Old Sarum, or White Waltham, or Barton...it looks as though I would be in luck and between £3k and £5k would get me a share quite readily. Similarly, it appears that there is a reasonable amount of liquidity in places like Goodwood, but that's just too far from where I live.

I really want something that is not a pusher and looks as traditional 3-axis as possible. I'm even in two minds about the Skyranger on that basis: would prefer the Nynja over the Swift, as the composite gives it a slightly more elegant finish.

I don't actually want a flex-wing, but I suppose my theory is that there is sufficient difference in appearances/style between 3-axis and flex-wing that the choice between them is discrete. A GT450, Quasar, Quantum etc looks like a 'proper' flex-wing; a Thruster just is missing that 'normal' appearance, if you'll forgive my bluntness.*

The way it's going, I just don't see myself having many options and so it's why I'm thinking I have a choice of compromises:

1) Build something myself
2) Try flex-wing (so that at least I'm flying something!) and rent a 'proper' a/c when I need to take passengers


* I'm really not explaining myself very well at all here. What I'm trying to say is that I just want to fly, but I don't want to fly a Thruster/X'Air/ Minifox/Hawk etc. I'm happy to try flex-wing and see what it's like, because at least if I go down that route I'll be sole owner of something and can fly on my own terms, when I like.

What I don't want to do is compromise on the 3-axis side because I know that £5k - £7k (stretch budget) is a perfectly reasonable amount of money to get a share in something permit-based, but the limiting factor is the lack of supply in the South-East.
Last edited by flyingearly on Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
#1838518
lobstaboy wrote:you don't mention that you've engaged locally with the flying community/ LAA strut/ clubs. Aeroplanes, and particularly shares, go long before they are advertised in most cases.


Although I haven't joined the LAA, I have spoken privately to a few very helpful people on here including local strut and have also engaged the club I rent from and others at the airfields. Deanland (which is the other location I can rent from) don't allow groups to be based there; I've also been checking the LAA classifies, been posting on the Microlight forum etc.

I have also been pro-actively contacting people who have sold shares in the past 5 years via Afors to ask if their syndicate is considering selling any shares soon, all to no avail.
#1838521
Looks aren't everything, but to be fair the X'Air is also slower than many flexwings. It is on the other hand cheap, easy and fun to fly, and very straightforward to own. I'd not be at-all averse to owning one myself, preferably with a nice simple 582 on it but one of the more advanced gearboxes.

The SKR is a good honest aeroplane, yes the more recent models are more refined than the earlier ones. I'd be happy to own either.

C42s are good honest aeroplanes, but overpriced for what they are, because of their popularity with flying schools. I can think of nothing about it which makes the aeroplane superior to a Skyranger for a private owner. If you can find one, the Thruster T600N is a straightforward good looking aeroplane, and usually very affordable second hand.

Jabirus aren't bad, and would suit your aesthetic, with some of the earlier models being very affordable. Maybe a bit of a funny cockpit, and experiences with the engines are mixed, plus they want good runway surfaces and reasonable runway lengths.

I'm not a fan of Rans, before anybody else mentions them. They look more conventional but have a chequered safety record, and aren't as refined as X'Airs, let alone Sky Rangers.

A share in a Eurostar would probably meet your personal aesthetics nicely, so might a share in a Europa, although the monowheel variants are a bit of a handful on the ground.

If you have hangar space available, CFM Shadows still look sexy and are very affordable - they just don't want to be stored outdoors.


Nothing wrong at-all with a group build to become a group aeroplane. I suspect you'd get less traction with a solo build for a group aeroplane.

G
#1838529
Jabirus are awful.

There are a few strips about with established groups on them.
If you ask around you may find yourself a group.

Redhill has a couple of groups but also very high overheads.
If you buy a Jodel you’ll need checking out, differences training, and so you’ll need to mortgage a few houses to pay the landing fees.
Buying a second hand aeroplane is the best bet.
Thinking of a second hand Rotax 912 is unrealistic, though you might find one in Romania...

Best bet is to move out of the southeast where light aviation is only welcome at high expense.

IMO in the southeast there are no options for limited budgets... There are even complaints about the costs at Headcorn!
A friend of mine near Redhill sold his share, and tried to sell me on the new 3d Microsoft Flight Simulator.
It’s a tragedy.

Go back to the 1970’s and 1980’s and Redhill was a fantastic place for enthusiastic aviators, and even Biggin Hill was a lot of fun. Headcorn was cheap, and tea and cakes at Shoreham were affordable... Build a time machine :)

White Waltham has a few groups on the notice board, even tempting for me.
Popham has groups too.
Forget Snoboaks.
Goodwood is expensive but there’s a good crowd down there.

In a good group there’s lots to learn, and people to share flights with.
We need more groups.
#1838532
flyingearly wrote:
I am absolutely not considering a Thruster or X'Air, I'm afraid - absolutely non-negotiable. Appreciate that this will upset/offend, but it's just not why I learned to fly. I want to take my wife/kids/friends up and they look like someone has stuck a lawnmower onto a tent (sorry, please don't hate me!). I'm sure they are amazing fun to fly, cheap to run and people love them - but I want something that looks as solid as possible.

I really want something that is not a pusher and looks as traditional 3-axis as possible. I'm even in two minds about the Skyranger on that basis


Nobody hates you. Personally I think you're misguided and being a bit foolish, but that's your choice.
Some truths:
- You haven't really got enough to money for what you want to do, so you need to give up flying or compromise.
- No microlight (or indeed any light aircraft) is "solid", they are all lightweight structures that do a difficult job very well, but solid they aren't. If you think a Skyranger isn't solid enough you need to take up golf.
- How long has it been since you started looking? All that time because of your non-negotiable requirements, you've not been moving forward.
- People don't build aeroplanes as a quick or cheap way to go flying. Building is a hobby in its own right and you need to think of it like that.
#1838535
White Waltham has a few groups on the notice board, even tempting for me.
Popham has groups too.
Forget Snoboaks.
Goodwood is expensive but there’s a good crowd down there.

In a good group there’s lots to learn, and people to share flights with.
We need more groups.


Being presently in three Waltham groups, and previously having been in groups at Popham and Chilbolton, yes, agree totally. Groups are the way to fly.

G
MichaelP, kanga liked this
#1838539
flyingearly wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:you don't mention that you've engaged locally with the flying community/ LAA strut/ clubs. Aeroplanes, and particularly shares, go long before they are advertised in most cases.

Although I haven't joined the LAA, I have spoken privately to a few very helpful people on here including local strut and have also engaged the club I rent from and others at the airfields. Deanland (which is the other location I can rent from) don't allow groups to be based there; I've also been checking the LAA classifies, been posting on the Microlight forum etc.

I have also been pro-actively contacting people who have sold shares in the past 5 years via Afors to ask if their syndicate is considering selling any shares soon, all to no avail.

I think I would actually identify the aircraft at your preferred locations which are flown by groups , and approach them directly by using G-INFO. Groups (especially of 5 or more) often have someone who would like to sell but hasn't been bothered. Or they might know someone in another group etc. Sadly I'm too far north west of London to help unless you could reach Oxfordshire!

Building anything yourself might just take you longer than you think, and cost more than you expect.
#1838541
flyingearly wrote:I am absolutely not considering a Thruster or X'Air, I'm afraid - absolutely non-negotiable. Appreciate that this will upset/offend


Nobody will be upset or offended but it just seems to defy logic, considering that building something just to get flying or even dumping an axis are acceptable to you.

Have you considered gliding?
#1838542
lobstaboy wrote:
flyingearly wrote:
I am absolutely not considering a Thruster or X'Air, I'm afraid - absolutely non-negotiable. Appreciate that this will upset/offend, but it's just not why I learned to fly. I want to take my wife/kids/friends up and they look like someone has stuck a lawnmower onto a tent (sorry, please don't hate me!). I'm sure they are amazing fun to fly, cheap to run and people love them - but I want something that looks as solid as possible.

I really want something that is not a pusher and looks as traditional 3-axis as possible. I'm even in two minds about the Skyranger on that basis


Nobody hates you. Personally I think you're misguided and being a bit foolish, but that's your choice.
Some truths:
- You haven't really got enough to money for what you want to do, so you need to give up flying or compromise.
- No microlight (or indeed any light aircraft) is "solid", they are all lightweight structures that do a difficult job very well, but solid they aren't. If you think a Skyranger isn't solid enough you need to take up golf.
- How long has it been since you started looking? All that time because of your non-negotiable requirements, you've not been moving forward.
- People don't build aeroplanes as a quick or cheap way to go flying. Building is a hobby in its own right and you need to think of it like that.


I get that, but I question whether I am really misguided, or whether what I'm looking for just doesn't exist in this part of the world (bit of a paradox - I'm arguing that it just doesn't exist right now, not that it can't exist):

£5k - £7k seems to be more than enough to grab a share at somewhere like Shoreham or Goodwood, but these are a bit too far for me
There are groups in the places I'm looking at, but shares don't come up very often
I'm not sure my requirements are *that* specific; 'anything that's not a Thruster or X'Air type', for less than £7k for a share, at any airfield within 45 minutes of where I live

To answer your questions:

I have been looking for around a year now; certainly since Lockdown v1.
I didn't say that the Skyranger wasn't solid enough, just to be clear: just that it was probably the simplest aircraft I've found that I think would qualify as a 'proper a/c'
I'm definitely differentiating between 'building' and 'building to fly'. I am a very hands-on, mechanical type and feel I would enjoy the build process entirely distinct from flying. I wouldn't never ordinarily think about building as a shortcut to flying, except for the fact I seem to be finding it so difficult to find a share that it might actually be the quickest route for me (and I would feel less stressed about renting if I knew that in 1 - 3 years time I'd have my own aircraft built and flyable).
Last edited by flyingearly on Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.