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Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:32 pm
by peter272
Over the years the French have had a habit of not being generous to the Brits, when it comes to recognition of licences. Something to do with Agincourt, perhaps.

So, fingers crossed it can be resolved.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:45 pm
by patowalker
Yes, I have a 'get out of jail card', but I and hundreds of other UK pilots have made use of France's foreign microlight exemption countless times, and there is hardly and difference in the wording. It would be difficult to find one has a different meaning to the other.

- et, concernant le pilote :
- il est titulaire d'un titre permettant de voler sur cet ULM soit délivré par cet Etat ou par un organisme ayant reçu délégation de cet Etat, soit validé ou reconnu par cet Etat


Le pilote est titulaire d'un titre aéronautique et des qualifications associées permettant de voler sur cet aéronef, soit délivré par l'Etat d'immatriculation ou par un organisme ayant reçu délégation de cet Etat, soit validé ou reconnu par cet Etat.


If I didn't, someone else would, so I decided to write to the DGAC seeking confirmation of my interpretation. I will post their reply when it arrives.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:05 pm
by Shoestring Flyer
Good one! :D

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:10 pm
by Jodelman
patowalker wrote:I decided to write to the DGAC seeking confirmation of my interpretation.


Is this a good idea? Perhaps better not to ask the question if you might not like the answer. :wink:
I thought your interpretation of the French law was a good one!

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:24 pm
by patowalker
As I said, it is inevitable someone will ask the DGAC one day, so I thought it would be better if I did.

It is important we get the right answer and I worried someone might ask the wrong question. Hopefully, I have done it right.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:44 pm
by Dave W
peter272 wrote:...Something to do with Agincourt, perhaps.

So, fingers crossed...

I see what you did there. ;)

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:41 am
by Doober2004
Just rececked French Order of July 24, 1991 relating to the conditions of use of civil aircraft in general aviation https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/LEGITEXT000006077971/,

..........which confirms (for those who have one) NPPL is still good for France.....extant para 4.3.4.3 says:

For the purposes of this paragraph, the holder of a national private pilot license (N-PPL) issued by the Civil Aviation Authority of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, to which is associated a declaration of conformity at the corresponding level of Annex I of the Convention on International Civil Aviation issued by this authority or on its behalf by an examiner authorized by it, is authorized to perform flights in France on board airplanes registered in the register of United Kingdom of Great Britain, on a private basis, in VFR and within the limits of the privileges held under this national license.

para 4.3.4.3 also says:

The Minister in charge of civil aviation may accept the exercise in France, and within the limits of the privileges attached to the French private pilot license, of privileges associated with a title issued or validated by a foreign State, or of special foreign privileges. not recognized in France, if this title or these privileges sanction a sufficient level of competence to obtain the title or equivalent French privileges.

Since a UK issued LAPL sanctions the same level of competence as a French LAPL (or did so at 11pm on 31/12/20) this box must also be ticked. And for homebuilts the Arrêté du 1er avril 2021 surely seals the deal i.e. the Minister has accepted!

Let's be careful not to ask the wrong question or the wrong clerk in DGAC!

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:58 am
by patowalker
Let's also be careful how we interpret French legislation. That article authorises the Minister of Aviation to accept the use of an NPPL, it does not authorise a pilot to use an NPPL.

The Minister did accept the use of an NPPL in AIC A 13/10, which you quoted previously, but it is no longer in effect. It was withdrawn, quite logically, when the LAPL was introduced and could be obtained by NPPL holders through a simple paper exercise.

There is no question that an NPPL is valid to fly homebuilts in France. All I have done, and only to convince the doubters, is seek confimation that a UK CAA Part-FCL LAPL is also valid.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:28 pm
by russp
patowalker wrote:Let's also be careful how we interpret French legislation. That article authorises the Minister of Aviation to accept the use of an NPPL, it does not authorise a pilot to use an NPPL.

The Minister did accept the use of an NPPL in AIC A 13/10, which you quoted previously, but it is no longer in effect. It was withdrawn, quite logically, when the LAPL was introduced and could be obtained by NPPL holders through a simple paper exercise.

There is no question that an NPPL is valid to fly homebuilts in France. All I have done, and only to convince the doubters, is seek confimation that a UK CAA Part-FCL LAPL is also valid.


Now I'm confused, the AIC allowing pilots to use a NPPL was withdrawn .... but there is no question that a NPPL is valid to fly homebuilts in France?

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:33 pm
by patowalker
The NPPL AIC covered flight in any aircraft. The homebuilt decree covers flight with any licence valid in the UK to fly that particular homebuilt.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:26 pm
by Doober2004
russp wrote:
Now I'm confused, the AIC allowing pilots to use a NPPL was withdrawn .... but there is no question that a NPPL is valid to fly homebuilts in France?


The AIC, which has been withdrawn, simply provided a template for the Certificate of ICAO Compliance. The regulation remains in force at para 4.3.4.3 of the order. https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/LEGITEXT000006077971/

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:54 pm
by patowalker
This is getting a bit boring, but all that regulation does is authorise the Minister to accept a UK NPPL certified to be ICAO compliant by a CAA approved FE, for flight in any UK registered aircraft. What you need to find now is the Minister's acceptance of that NPPL.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:07 am
by tomshep
Amazing. The French regulation is easier to understand when written in French than ours are in English! Equally amazing, or not are those dissecting clear information to fourteen decimal places in order to prove that it isn't what it says. I couldn' t make it up.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:30 am
by Kittyhawk
I am trying to follow this, honestly, but can someone please answer this simple question:
I have an LAPL, a UK PPL/SEP, an NPPL/SSEA, a LAPL medical and a PMD. Can I fly to France in my G reg factory built Permit Jodel? Obviously bearing in mind Covid restrictions both here and there.

Re: France - UK registered homebuilt and historical aircraft

PostPosted:Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:56 am
by patowalker
Does your Jodel fit this criteria?

— initial design was established before 1 January 1955, and
— production has been stopped before 1 January 1975;