Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1839846
patowalker wrote:Does your Jodel fit this criteria?

— initial design was established before 1 January 1955, and
— production has been stopped before 1 January 1975;


The initial design of the D10 was commenced by Jean Delemontez in the late 40s, but was put on hold and later develeoped by Pierre Robin as the DR100, which first flew in 1957. This became the DR1050 in 1960.
#1839863
I don't think a factory built DR 1050 fits the Annex 1 1a(i) criteria, which unfortunately means you are going to have to pay €50 to fly to France.

https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... /LP6-2.doc

https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/en/payment-modalities

I would hope the permit comes back with the standard wording for permit aircraft: "The pilot shall hold a pilot’s licence and associated qualifications entitling him to fly this aircraft, either issued by the State of registration or an organisation with a delegation by the said State, or validated or accepted by the said State."
This will validate your LAPL medical (in spite of what you may read on here).
#1839871
The exemption granted by the UK to French permit aircraft is wider ranging and almost certainly covers their DR 1050s.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_910.pdf

We should be seeking reciprocity.

Edit: The French exemption covers more permit aircraft than I originally thought, so no need to seek reciprocity.
Last edited by patowalker on Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1839893
Kittyhawk.
Ignore my previous post. Your aircraft does not meet the requirement of Article 1.1 of the exemption, but it does meet 1.2, as it had a type certificate (No.6 - 11/3/60).

1. the aircraft falls in category (a) (i) of Annex II to Regulation n°216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 February 2008,
2. a type certificate or an individual certificate of airworthiness meeting the requirements of Annex 8 of the Chicago Convention has been issued to such an aircraft,
3. the aircraft was constructed by a manufacturer, authorised by the former holder of the type certificate.


https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... crafts.pdf

Each one of your three licence and your LAPL medical will be valid to fly it in France.
#1839903
patowalker wrote:This is getting a bit boring, but all that regulation does is authorise the Minister to accept a UK NPPL certified to be ICAO compliant by a CAA approved FE, for flight in any UK registered aircraft. What you need to find now is the Minister's acceptance of that NPPL.


I agree it's a bit tedious but .......what is it about para 4.3.4.3 of Order of 24 July 1991 that isn't explicit regarding NPPL?

For the purposes of this paragraph, the holder of a national private pilot license (N-PPL) issued by the Civil Aviation Authority .............. is authorized to perform flights in France ......


Why is that not enough?
#1839910
riverrock wrote:Looks like neither of my two Share-o-planes fit: SA Bulldog, Jodel 1050 ( both on permits).
Lucky I have no current plans to cross the channel ( and I guess the €50 would be small compared to the fuel bill).

Ironic on the Jodel - given it was built in France.


Thanks for posting that, it prompted me to look deeper into the Jodel case. It didn't make sense that it required permission to fly home.
#1839929
Doober2004 wrote:
patowalker wrote:This is getting a bit boring, but all that regulation does is authorise the Minister to accept a UK NPPL certified to be ICAO compliant by a CAA approved FE, for flight in any UK registered aircraft. What you need to find now is the Minister's acceptance of that NPPL.


I agree it's a bit tedious but .......what is it about para 4.3.4.3 of Order of 24 July 1991 that isn't explicit regarding NPPL?

For the purposes of this paragraph, the holder of a national private pilot license (N-PPL) issued by the Civil Aviation Authority .............. is authorized to perform flights in France ......


Why is that not enough?


Hi Doober2004,
I meant boring for others not particularly interested in our discussion.

It is not enough because the minister was authorised to validate foreign licences that matched the French national private pilot licence. When it became compulsory to replace the French national licence with an EASA Part-FCL licence, that authority was lost and the NPPL acceptance was withdrawn. This was quite logical if you think about it, because France could no longer authorise a foreign national licence to be used to fly EASA aircraft in its airspace. Another benefit of the agreement was that that NPPL (certified ICAO compliant by a FE), could be used with an ICAO compliant Class 2 medical, as opposed to a JAA Compliant Class 2 medical. There was a list of French AMEs willing to do that medical.

The withdrawl of authorisation had little effect, because a standard NPPL SSEA could be used to obtain a LAPL and anybody able to get an ICAO Class 2 medical should be able to get a LAPL medical.

The Minister in charge of civil aviation may accept the exercise in France, and within the limits of the privileges attached to the French private pilot license, of privileges associated with a title issued or validated by a foreign State, or of special foreign privileges. not recognized in France, if this title or these privileges sanction a sufficient level of competence to obtain the title or equivalent French privileges.
#1839942
Yes, thank you, @patowalker. This is all extremely helpful and is a heck of an untangling job.

I'm going to be distilling this when I get a minute. :shock:
russp, patowalker, G-BLEW liked this
#1849867
After fully describing the PMD to them, I have received an email from the DGAC which says the term "pilot's licence" in Artcle 4 of the decree of 8 January 2018 includes the corresponding medical, and that if I am authorised to fly my homebuilt aircraft on a PMD in the UK, "PMD is valid to come to fly in France with your amateur built aircraft"

https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... _built.pdf

I am now happy to fly my homebuilt in France on either my LAPL or NPPL SSEA and a PMD.



 
Rob P, nallen, Doober2004 and 2 others liked this
#1849883
@patowalker - excellent news! Whilst it doesn't personally affect me (at the moment!) a lot of people will thank you for your perseverance in getting that statement. :thumleft:

I'm still preparing a "Basics of Flying Abroad" presentation for FLYER, and now thanks mainly to you I have some additional positive amendments/updates to the "Going Foreign after BREXIT" one I did a couple of months ago. :D

@Shoestring Flyer, I do still have some double-checking to do but it looks to me like things have clarified since March.
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