Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837003
I took my aircraft to its annual yesterday, and while planning, noted that Solent is still closed and class G quite a bit of the time...

NOTAM wrote:EGHI CTA Activated

Until 10 Apr 2021; SFC-FL55

Solent CTA and Southampton CTR/ATZ operating hours are- Mon-Fri 1030-1715. Sat-Sun deactivated.
Outside of these hours, Southampton CTR and all Solent CTA will be deactivated and reclassified class G


They've been quite uninterested in talking to anyone outside their operating hours, and indeed I've flown through the CTA and indeed the ATZ while it's been deactivated.

Which felt eerie enough, but the question occurs - what happens if no one answers when you call, you enter it when it's deactivated, and it becomes active?

You're then in CAS without a clearance.
#1837018
As a practical solution I’d suggest:

1. Listening squawk. That way they know you are there and can contact you to deconflict if necessary.

2. Call to London info on box 2 to tell them you are trying to call and can’t get a reply.

That should help you to establish contact and cover you against being done for any infringement.
#1837019

Which felt eerie enough, but the question occurs - what happens if no one answers when you call, you enter it when it's deactivated, and it becomes active?

You're then in CAS without a clearance.


If opening hours are published and you are in their zone when they ‘open’ then you’ve infringed and they quite rightly will chuck the book at you :wink:
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837029
I'd expect that to happen here, too.

It certainly did e.g. at Boscombe when they would re-open the tower for Summer night flying.

Where I think we do sometimes miss a trick is not having a recorded message triggered by an aircraft calling up on frequency, telling you that they are closed, That way you get unambiguous and timely confirmation of the status of the airspace whether open or closed; open, of course, you'd get a live controller response.

The French do that very well, and I think it helps everybody out in terms of both workload and accidental infringements for what cannot be a lot of money.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837034
Paul_Sengupta wrote:To the course you shall go!

PeteSpencer wrote:If opening hours are published and you are in their zone when they ‘open’ then you’ve infringed and they quite rightly will chuck the book at you :wink:

Have to say, these are the most plausible answers so far.

As the weather was so nice, my original planned route yesterday was somewhat roundabout, but would have had me very close, possibly inside the Solent CTA around opening time.

So I chickened out and avoided it. I know I could have routed Stoney Cross - Beaulieu below 2000', but it's so wooded around there that I don't really fancy it that low.
#1837045
This has happened to me several times and it's always worked the same. NB: not in UK airspace, but I see no reason why that should matter.

If I fly to, or pass through, a CTR that's closed, I always switch to or at least monitor the frequency. Where I fly, a closed CTR is usually an open airport in G airspace (sometimes with PPR when closed), so you talk to other traffic in the normal manner. When the tower opens, they announce that on the frequency. All you need to do is answer and you'll get clearance.

The usual reason for a CTR to be open only at certain times is to cater for infrequent CAT. The time they open is not one minute before scheduled traffic is due to arrive, so there is time for you to either get clearance to do what you want or have your request denied and then make other plans. It's almost the definition of the non-event. (If you don't listen and don't know they've opened, it will most certainly be an event!)
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837056
They can't chuck the book at everyone in their airspace which was Class G just 5 seconds ago!

They need a mechanism of establishing who's inside - and those who deliberately don't respond will subsequently be deemed to have infringed.

Those that do respond should be entered onto the flight strip and then controlled and separated in accordance with the class of airspace.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837061
James Chan wrote:They can't chuck the book at everyone in their airspace which was Class G just 5 seconds ago!

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but I bet they can.

They need a mechanism of establishing who's inside - and those who deliberately don't respond will subsequently be deemed to have infringed.

Those that do respond should be entered onto the flight strip and then controlled and separated in accordance with the class of airspace.

Yes, that would be perfectly fair and reasonable.

However, and again I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the argument went....

'... well you should have planned your timing better so that you could either have requested a clearance before entering, or flown clear before opening time."
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837062
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
TopCat wrote:I know I could have routed Stoney Cross - Beaulieu below 2000', but it's so wooded around there that I don't really fancy it that low.


It really isn't that wooded.

Well agreed, it's not all trees, but what isn't trees is pretty rough. It's certainly not smooth landable fields.
#1837070
TopCat wrote:
James Chan wrote:They need a mechanism of establishing who's inside - and those who deliberately don't respond will subsequently be deemed to have infringed.

Those that do respond should be entered onto the flight strip and then controlled and separated in accordance with the class of airspace.

Yes, that would be perfectly fair and reasonable.

If you can wipe the tears of laughter from earlier and re-read my post, you'll find that I essentially described such a mechanism in full working order. But outside UK airspace. :D

(I've been on this forum long enough to be both bemused and amused by stories of CAP-413, the UK airspace and similar topics. :lol: )