Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1837482
Dominie wrote:But when do they come on air - presumably a few minutes before the published time??

My experience is that they come on air at or around the published time. That's enough of time ahead of the next scheduled flight.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837499
TLRippon wrote:Haven’t we had to deal with rolling activations of temporary airspace/danger/prohibited areas for years. I wonder why this is any different?

No one's suggesting it's any different, so I'm not sure what point you're making by asking this question. I've never been in CAS when it comes online, so I have no experience of what happens.

Hence the question.

As I'd prefer not to make any assumptions, or rely on comments on an internet forum, no matter how erudite, I'd just like to see something official, stating what the procedure is, if any, if someone is already in the CAS in question when it comes back online.

Surely this isn't a complicated question? I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just trying to find something out.

Presumably the controllers have a procedure for dealing with traffic that's already there?
#1837524
Dominie wrote:
akg1486 wrote:Any ATCO here to give their side?

That's what I would like to hear. I'm sure that there are some ATC rules to cover this situation (hopefully to do what that US YouTube clip showed). But when do they come on air - presumably a few minutes before the published time??


I can only make an educated guess, but I would expect there will be a local instruction for the ATC unit concerned. I’d then expect it to be along the lines of having to be in position a set period before the airspace is due to become active in order to do any required checking and equipment setup plus monitoring the airspace for just this situation.

So chances are anyone in the airspace a short time before it is due to become active, ATC will be in position albeit not operational.

When airspace becomes active, if anyone is observed by ATC to be in the airspace I’d expect ATC to attempt to make contact to confirm said airspace is now active and to provide an appropriate clearance. As mentioned earlier in thread they may even broadcast a few minutes beforehand to say it will shortly be becoming active.

I don’t see why if someone happens to still be transiting at point of airspace becoming active that this should cause ATC any angst, or generate any sort of reporting action, as long as two way contact can be satisfactorily established at, or possibly even just before, the airspace becomes active.

So, if you think you’re going to be in the airspace at the point it activates advice would be to be squawking something appropriate assuming txpdr available and certainly monitor or maybe free call on the relevant frequency but also be expecting ATC to try and contact you.

Not a big issue I’d have thought.
Rob P, Dominie liked this
#1837533
Personal recent experience with this scenario: having planned to cross a block of airspace while it was still Class G, a timing change meant I would be halfway through at best (significant turb slowing me down...). So listened on frequency early, called early, ATC were coming online early, cleared through. No mention on frequency at the precise time it was activated, perhaps because there was only known traffic operating in/around the zone already. Liverpool, FWIW.
chevvron, ChrisT, akg1486 liked this
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840450
I collected my aeroplane from its annual yesterday, and as it was so nice, took a roundabout route back. I planned Shoreham - SAM - Salisbury - Frome - round Salisbury Plain, north of Keevil, back to White Waltham.

Solent CTA didn't open until 11.30 local, and as luck would have it, by the time I'd footled about in the Shoreham overhead for a bit, making sure that it was all working ok, I ended up at SAM with a few minutes still to go before opening.

With about 10 to run to the CAS boundary, and then at Bishop's Waltham and again at SAM, I had made blind calls to Solent Radar on 120.23 squawking 7011. I heard absolutely nothing from them until 1 minute late by my watch, when they announced that they were open.

I had exited the CTA about 30 seconds beforehand, so I called them and asked them what would have happened had I still been inside when they opened. He said, and I quote:

"You'd have been in big trouble!"

I do remember that bit verbatim, as you may not be surprised to hear. Then he said something along the lines of...

"Just kidding, if you're already there there's nothing we'd do except talk to you and give you a clearance out".

So there we are. At Solent, at least, I'm delighted to report that common sense does appear to reign.
Ben K, kanga, GrahamB and 5 others liked this
#1840541
I think the key thing is "monitor" :D

In my gliding club, when nearby airport change their runway, we lose one bit of airspace, pilots flying there needs to monitor frequency and tower will make calls to evacuate, if not we send the tug aircraft to escort, all paid by a poor pilot pilot saving money soaring the ridge, obviously a runway change should be noticeable over that part of the ridge without radio, it stops working :lol:

In other places, the whole airspace get shutdown in 30min when some king decide to fly, if you happen to be VFR that day ans can't make it, ATC will tell you to divert 200nm away or land in a field if you can't :eye:
#1845150
First of all, if you know (as the good pilot that you are) that a CTR may become active at (say) 1140 today and you fly through Class G at 1138 and you are knowingly there at 1141 I would expect you to monitor or free call the published ICF.

Secondly, I would expect that, in the HAZID and IA* that any runway opening would be built around the risk of a non-RT aircraft safely flying through Class G being “caught” in a CTR as the clock ticks on.

(* Hazard Identification and Impact Assessment - part of the Change Management process)

I may suggest that if you found yourself in the CTR at 1140 and you orbitted the runway with no radio until 1150 then you may be more at risk of dropping yourself in the mire.

As mentioned above - if you know a Danger Area had an activation time and you entered a minute before but stayed in it for a long transit you would also (probably) be in trouble.