Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1836794
I was reading a magazine and certain airports in Germany - Hannover, Leipzig/Halle and the new Berlin-Brandenburg - have had their airspaces redesigned. In future, the airspace will be designated based on the runway in use; the thinking is that modern jets have such a level of performance in climbing, that lower airspaces in the direction of departure from the airport are typically not required. Thus airspace on the departure sectors of the airports will be classified as (e.g.) D(HX) or C(HX) and deactivated when not required.

To identify which areas are active, each tower will announce the sectors which are not in use via the ATIS; Berlin-Brandenburg will have it's own VFR-ATIS frequency in use for VFR pilots wishing to hear which sectors can be transited. Additionally, the TMZ surrounding these airfields will also become TMZ(HX) to allow non transponder aircraft more use of the airspace.

Aircraft flying in this region must maintain a listening watch and will be given a 10 minute warning, should the airspace then need to be activated to ensure they can either leave the airspace or find an alternative solution (clearance).

Here is more information, unfortunately in German. So, seeing that it's possible, wondering when CAA might take a leaf out of the books of the DAeC & DFS, consider returning some of the airspace back for the use of us lowly VFR bimblers.....
#1836795
It will be very interesting to see how this works and good for them giving it a try.

My concern is many pilots are very poor at maintaining an adequate radio watch and on the correct frequency. It maybe pop up airspace will cause more difficulties than less, but well worth a try.
#1836796
Interesting for flight planning as airports will change departure runway dynamically depending on the direction of the wind so the situation could change whilst you’re in flight. I wonder how the likes of SkyDemon would cope with that dynamic airspace depiction when it doesn’t necessarily know the runway in use.

Iceman 8)
#1836816
Iceman wrote:Interesting for flight planning as airports will change departure runway dynamically depending on the direction of the wind so the situation could change whilst you’re in flight. I wonder how the likes of SkyDemon would cope with that dynamic airspace depiction when it doesn’t necessarily know the runway in use.

Iceman 8)


That was my thought; maybe Tim could offer an option to toggle a button on SkyDemon setting the runway in use and offer either to declassify the departure sector to allow it's use - with a suitable caveat about infringements being the responsibility of the pilot - or continue to show it as being there.... Either way, if you think about the south east, such actions could potentially free up a large chunk of airspace for us to use....
#1836845
They've used the HX labels in Germany for a while now, with the changes to Berlin's airspace taking effect last November I think (and recently expanded in the last AIRAC).

German pilots know all about it, so they know they can go through the HX stubs where the active runway allows it, but I don't think there is yet a way to dynamically tell people about it. If there were, we'd obviously consider consuming that in SkyDemon but there would have to be a good way of keeping it up-to-date while airborne.
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#1836882
I think the Germans do this sort of thing quite well. To my knowledge there is nothing stopping UK ANSPs incorporating such concepts already - they just need to come forward and propose it. The CAA themselves do not design airspace.

Pilots would have to get used to the concept. I'm sure the Germans get some infringements and/or confusion, but they probably would not do it if the issues outweighed the benefits.
#1836885
Edward Bellamy wrote:I think the Germans do this sort of thing quite well. To my knowledge there is nothing stopping UK ANSPs incorporating such concepts already - they just need to come forward and propose it. The CAA themselves do not design airspace.

Pilots would have to get used to the concept. I'm sure the Germans get some infringements and/or confusion, but they probably would not do it if the issues outweighed the benefits.


The Germans also benefit from radar backed FIS - means they can see when an aircraft is likely to infringe; often on frequency I hear them calling someone and asking about their intentions concerning the airspace ahead so I'm sure that's one major factor in reducing infringements..... now if only we could get the same level of support in UK......
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#1837579
We also have this functionality through frequency monitoring codes and ATCOs are vigilant for aircraft that may infringe.

The issues are that there is little incentive for ANSPs to innovate like this because airspace change costs them money, and too many of the older generation within GA are suspicious of every change and challenge everything rather than try to help.
#1837620
WhoWhenWhy? wrote:We also have this functionality through frequency monitoring codes and ATCOs are vigilant for aircraft that may infringe.

The issues are that there is little incentive for ANSPs to innovate like this because airspace change costs them money, and too many of the older generation within GA are suspicious of every change and challenge everything rather than try to help.


Really? Did you read the other thread on here about the infringement of Birmingham Class D CTA? The student pilot was squawking the conspicuity code, was monitoring the frequency but wasn't contacted by the controller when he looked as if he would infringe?
#1837669
Full Metal Jackass wrote:I was reading a magazine and certain airports in Germany - Hannover, Leipzig/Halle and the new Berlin-Brandenburg - have had their airspaces redesigned. In future, the airspace will be designated based on the runway in use; the thinking is that modern jets have such a level of performance in climbing, that lower airspaces in the direction of departure from the airport are typically not required. Thus airspace on the departure sectors of the airports will be classified as (e.g.) D(HX) or C(HX) and deactivated when not required.


Presumably those airports have no 787 or A350 operators as those aircraft make the "Gripper" look like a Lightning!
#1837671
Haven't flown in Germany since the summer of 2019 (for well-known reasons) and didn't know that. It's not really a big chunk or airspace we're talking about: just the outer edge of the TMA. Not practical for planning purposes since you can't know for sure if it's going to be available. Possibly one could postpone the start of descent.

The presentation in Skydemon is more than adequate for anyone that knows that the "(HX)" means. I don't think I'd fly through the C(HX) airspace without confirmation from Langen Information that it's available. I'm always in contact with them anyway when flying through Germany.
#1837742
malcolmfrost wrote:
Full Metal Jackass wrote:I was reading a magazine and certain airports in Germany - Hannover, Leipzig/Halle and the new Berlin-Brandenburg - have had their airspaces redesigned. In future, the airspace will be designated based on the runway in use; the thinking is that modern jets have such a level of performance in climbing, that lower airspaces in the direction of departure from the airport are typically not required. Thus airspace on the departure sectors of the airports will be classified as (e.g.) D(HX) or C(HX) and deactivated when not required.


Presumably those airports have no 787 or A350 operators as those aircraft make the "Gripper" look like a Lightning!


QR82 is a regular charter flight (BER -> DOH) which is performed by Qatar using A350, 777 and 787.....
#1837766
@skydriller and @Full Metal Jackass who other than pilots who use them without reading tbe small print think that UK ATC will call before an infringement happens? Obviously, a call might happen from time to time, obviously it would be good if there were enough controllers to have it happen all the time, but until we have enough or even some "AI" controllers, it won't be standard. It isn't part of the current deal in the UK and never has been
I also remember some loud complaints by "ego-hurt" pilots when Farnborough used to proactively warn them they would infringe if they didn't descend/turn very soon!
#1837781
Irv Lee wrote:...but until we have enough or even some "AI" controllers, it won't be standard.

Actually, I do have one of those.

R2Take2 is made in Frome these days, having moved into the Big City from down Milborne Port way.