Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By TLRippon
#1831640
As the cost of overhauls has risen significantly in the couple of years a lot more aircraft will be presented on condition than before.
By Edward Bellamy
#1831653
Lots of good advice on this thread, there really are so many variables with old engines.

It could be OK, 45 hours a year is not much but depends on what the profile of this was - if it was one hour a week with sympathetic handling then fine, but more likely would be long periods of inactivity followed by short periods of more intensive use (ie during the summer, when people have time etc) which is not so good.
By RipAndTear
#1831713
No just, no. I bought a French wood and rag aircraft about 17 years ago and the engine was 'on condition' It was a weekend used only machine and only when the sun shined and not on any other days. Hangered always, then run up over the winter. I got to it when the owner decided to sell and hadn't been used for about 8 months. Permit had a few months left and the engine was removed and shrink wrapped before shipping to my engineers workshop. Engine was a write off. Good compressions but internals corroded badly, camshaft, followers and even the mag drive wheel. Allegedly had 2360 on logs but eventually cost me £12.5 k to rebuild (using a s/h casing). The cost of the aircraft was like a few others have said already, airframe basically scrap value with no viable engine. I still have the beast , now dismantled some years later and in my workshop - the engine is best part of it now. I wouldn't do that again...EVER. It's been a learning curve of painful financial proportions.

R&T
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1831721
We've just been quoted 4K more for a zero timed engine due, apparently, to Brexit (customs charges on parts) and currency changes. Info came to me third hand, but worth factoring in!
By Shoestring Flyer
#1831741
Buying a 50year old aircraft with a 25year old Lycoming engine which is 'on condition' is going to be a receipe for constant cash calls within your group.
You need to budget for an engine overhaul/replacement when purchasing the aircraft, it is the only way.
The problem though then is that in most cases the present owners of these old aircraft with old 'on condition' engines and usually ancient avionics have delusional ideas of what their aircraft is really worth!
Consider looking for a more modern aircraft on an LAA Permit with a lower time Rotax in it would be my view.
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By TLRippon
#1831814
And once your pre flight has pulled a cylinder to have a look at the cam lobes, it’ll make a great and inexpensive runabout despite all the fear mongering going in here.
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By Dodo
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1831833
I was lucky with my two on condition aircraft engines in two different C of A aircraft. Both were on condition with >12 years SMOH, rather than on condition because of total hours.1 was a Lycoming (in a PA 28) , and 1 was a Continental (in a C 172).

If I recall correctly I only had to have 1 new cylinder in 850 hrs flying between the 2 a/c. Since in each case, a zero timed engine would have cost more than I paid for either aircraft I was quite relieved.
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By ThePipster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1831840
A lot depends on the engine type. Small Continentals have the cam at the bottom of the engine where is remains pretty well oiled even when not in use.

Lycomings have the cam at the top of the engine and they really suffer when not used regularly, the oil follows gravity to the bottom of the engine and on starting oil has to travel upwards to lubricate the cam.

@AndyR has it, assume the worst and if the result is better you won’t be disappointed.

Pipster
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By sky_high30
#1832256
When my syndicate bought my aeroplane the price reflected a run-out but serviceable engine. One of the conditions of buying into the group at the start was including a fee for the engine (IE £3,500 for the share plus £1,500 for the engine assuming they get a year out of it).

Wouldn't walk away but you have to be prepared to cough up for an overhaul sooner rather than later.

Also assuming the rest of the aircraft is sound - an engine change is relatively simple compared to sorting corrosion.
By Minimums
#1832294
riverrock wrote:We've just been quoted 4K more for a zero timed engine due, apparently, to Brexit (customs charges on parts) and currency changes. Info came to me third hand, but worth factoring in!


This is incorrect with regard to certified engines or parts.
All certified aircraft parts with a valid certificate of airworthiness ( form one or 8130 or equivalent) are duty free. This is a WTO ruling recognised all around the world.
Pre and post the UK/EU trade agreement nothing has changed and nothing would have even without a trade agreement.

In regard to Lycoming engines, historically a large number of engines failing to reach TBO or high time was due to corrosion. This did lead to camshaft and tappet failure in many cases. Since the introduction of the Lycoming roller tappet and camshaft, these premature failures have virtually disappeared completely.
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By Bathman
#1832296
I think there's simply an element of luck I know someone who brought a n aircraft with a 2 year 250 hour factory rebuilt engine and with 9 months it was scrap. I also know someone who brought a 1500 hour engine which had had the cheapest overhaul possible including overhauled cylinders and it went another 2000 hours.
By Tac_R
#1832305
Aside from the pro's and cons detailed above (many valid in either direction), there is always the mitigation against worst-case by carrying out periodic SOAP sampling of the oil, with the caveat that this is only effective when looking at trends, not as a snapshot of condition.

A pre-paid sample "kit" can be purchased from Spectro (I'm sure there are 'other providers available'...!) for around £50, and sampling is easy if you have a sump quick drain fitted - I am doing 25hr samples on my on-condition IO-360, though still building up to sufficient samples to track any trend of note.

Regards,

David
By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1832331
^^^^^So, you add £2 per hour to your running-costs, -why not just add that sum to your engine-fund contingency.?-after all, even if you see a trend, what can you actually do about it? One would assume you've sought all practical advice on how best to treat an engine to ensure longevity, -so why abuse the Donkey in the first place? :P