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Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:41 pm
by MattL
Let’s not try and do A vs B again.... :roll:

In terms of FLARM, PAW is looking to provide a tactical air picture capability that may give you some SA of the traffic situation around you. SE2 is an air to air TAS capability.

Different concepts. Different layers of capability. Different limitations.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:03 am
by PaulSS
@Cub Definitely not an A v B discussion but an answer to a concept:

Can I just be clear about what you are suggesting here Paul? Are you suggesting that the detecting and rebroadcasting of received FLARM emissions via the ATOM network would better support you than direct reception of FLARM via a device fitted in the aircraft, on the basis that you may ‘see’ aircraft further away?


I have my own thoughts on that but that was not the point of the post and I won't share those thoughts lest it does start up the A v B argument again.

I was simply stating that, as Rob (specifically) already has PAW fitted, paying for SkyDemon access to Flarm would be pointless as direct detected Flarm is not going to show up on his PAW, subscription or not.

However, given his base airfield (about which he is most concerned to see gliders) has an ATOM station he is going to see those glider Flarm transmissions and those same transmissions will be received at a greater range from the ATOM station than IF he had a direct form of Flarm transmission.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:33 am
by Cessna571
It’s a valid point, I missed a glider by only 7km when we could fly. I was using SkyEcho so I didn’t see him.

If I’d have been using PAW, I could have avoided him by a bigger margin. (If there was a ground station nearby).

Seriously..

I think the real difference is that one is free and one you pay for the license.

(Though there is a PAW license to pay remember, so you just pay money to different people really)

Flarm haven’t changed their encryption key lately, though I understand it was broken quite quickly last time.

I’ve not been involved for a while, but have flarm effectively said they’re not fussed now? Have they written that anywhere?

I’m wondering if they do change the key whether they’ve undertaken to give it to the ground stations next time rather than it have to be broken. After all, there’s more than 1 set of ground stations using it.

FR24, Radar360,Atom, does ADSB exchange use it?

Btw, it’s quite easy to build your own flarm box, but I think flarm would come after you.

I’m surprised they’re not making it more awkward now the SD/SE2/Flarm solution is in place.

Does it suit them to have it rebroadcast now?

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am
by Kemble Pitts
A question for the Cognoscenti.

I've bought SE2 (not flown with it yet). I have a Bluetooth enabled Lightspeed headset. Neither has a screen of any sort, so how do I connect the two via Bluetooth so that I can obtain 'traffic alerts'?

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:55 am
by Miscellaneous
@Kemble Pitts you don't. You connect the headset to your iPad via BT, which is connected to the SE2 by WiFi. :thumright:

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 am
by Buzz53
Cessna571 wrote:I’ve not been involved for a while, but have flarm effectively said they’re not fussed now? Have they written that anywhere?

Btw, it’s quite easy to build your own flarm box, but I think flarm would come after you.

I too am curious about the obvious anomalies in the reception and dissemination of Flarm data. You only ever see bar-room opinions on the matter so, in the heat of lockdown boredom, I stuck my tongue in my cheek and wrote to Flarm asking for their views.

Amongst various other queries, I suggested that whilst they might be justifiably worried about third party transmitting devices as they would have potential to interfere with Flarm’s own users, independent receiver systems would be harmless and indeed a free bonus for their own users, as it would allow them to be seen by people who would not otherwise do so and should therefore be encouraged. Indeed, the current scheme of charging £30 for the privileged of having somebody else (e.g Skydemon / uavionix) do all the donkeywork for them seems a bit cheeky (I was hopefully slightly more tactful in what I actually wrote to them)!

I never got a reply, which in fairness was the milder of the two outcomes I was expecting!
Alan

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 am
by Kemble Pitts
Right, thanks Miscellaneous.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:50 am
by PeteSpencer
Mine’s arrived. While it’s charging, time to rtfm.

Oh how I hate screen-based fm s , :twisted:

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:28 pm
by riverrock
Rob P wrote:On your solution, have you ever been in an aircraft with PAw alerts direct from the box rather than filtered by SD? It would not be a route I would take.

We're adding a volume control for when in the circuit with others.
The air in Scotland is quiet enough that the info from PAw should be useful rather than a constant noise.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:36 pm
by Miscellaneous
riverrock wrote:The air in Scotland is quiet enough that the info from PAw should be useful rather than a constant noise.

I often wonder how those in the south cope with the number of warnings due volume of traffic. I know I find the terrain warning, 5 miles (or whatever it is) when I'm on final annoying. I can't help but think continual warnings are simply going to be filtered. That's why I scratch my head at what appears an obsession of detecting at range.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:38 pm
by Cub
Cessna571 wrote:It’s a valid point, I missed a glider by only 7km when we could fly. I was using SkyEcho so I didn’t see him.

If I’d have been using PAW, I could have avoided him by a bigger margin. (If there was a ground station nearby).

Seriously..

I think the real difference is that one is free and one you pay for the license.

(Though there is a PAW license to pay remember, so you just pay money to different people really)

Flarm haven’t changed their encryption key lately, though I understand it was broken quite quickly last time.

I’ve not been involved for a while, but have flarm effectively said they’re not fussed now? Have they written that anywhere?

I’m wondering if they do change the key whether they’ve undertaken to give it to the ground stations next time rather than it have to be broken. After all, there’s more than 1 set of ground stations using it.

FR24, Radar360,Atom, does ADSB exchange use it?

Btw, it’s quite easy to build your own flarm box, but I think flarm would come after you.

I’m surprised they’re not making it more awkward now the SD/SE2/Flarm solution is in place.

Does it suit them to have it rebroadcast now?


I detect a little bit of mischief making ;-). In fairness to PAW, they like everyone else decoding FLARM data will be paying a subscription to FLARM for that facility via some process. SkyDemon and others simply pass on that charge from FLARM and make no profit on the transaction. I have just been talking to Airbox, this morning, about their integration with FLARM and SkyEcho with RunwayHD which is about to go live using a similar licence arrangement.

We have also licensed the reception, decoding and rebroadcast of FLARM data for incorporation into the trial TIS-B transmissions in support of the Goodwood trial. Confirming that this is in place and therefore you can offer continuity of service is exactly the sort of regulatory hurdle that the Regulator will examine in allowing the incorporation of FLARM into a TIS-B broadcast.

I am resisting temptation to embark on the rebroadcast v direct reception debate but I would urge people to go and read all the caveats placed by the FAA on the TIS-B concept and why rebroadcast of ADS-B targets are not included in the ADS-B TIS-B broadcast.

In summary, direct reception of a conflicting target, that is close enough to pose a threat, will almost always offer an increased safety mitigation in comparison with any ground based reception and rebroadcast, for a variety of fairly obvious reasons.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:20 pm
by JonBoy
PeteSpencer wrote:Mine’s arrived. While it’s charging, time to rtfm.

Oh how I hate screen-based fm s , :twisted:


You’re ahead of me Peter. Mine’s due to arrive this afternoon between 1558 and 1658 ...... :D
STILL waiting for the CAA to approve my submitted docs, Passport & PPL etc. Getting worried now cos loads of folk seem to be jumping in at the last minute to get one (like me.... :D )

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:48 pm
by malcolmfrost
When you come to setting up, none of the current browsers will accept a numerical address in the address bar. If you are on Windows you can find old fashioned Internet Explorer under Start/Windows Accessories and it accepts a numerical address.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:19 pm
by Cub
malcolmfrost wrote:When you come to setting up, none of the current browsers will accept a numerical address in the address bar.


Really? I have just tried the current versions of Safari and Chrome which let me.

Re: Theoretical SkyEcho questions: advice please:

PostPosted:Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:22 pm
by Cub
JonBoy wrote:
PeteSpencer wrote:Mine’s arrived. While it’s charging, time to rtfm.

Oh how I hate screen-based fm s , :twisted:


You’re ahead of me Peter. Mine’s due to arrive this afternoon between 1558 and 1658 ...... :D
STILL waiting for the CAA to approve my submitted docs, Passport & PPL etc. Getting worried now cos loads of folk seem to be jumping in at the last minute to get one (like me.... :D )


You boys should have chanced your hand and submitted the receipt for the printer you need to purchase to read the manual :D

If you are really desperate, PM me your postal address and I will print one off and send it to you.