Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By IMCR
#1827436
I remember the good old days with endless debates about flying VMC under IFR etc. It got everyone so excited it was worth slipping uo occassionally as long as the pop corn was ready. :lol:

Parnassus - what aircraft type are you thinking of using for said purpose?
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1827474
I was in the tower at Biggin one night when a biz-jet was trying to fly to Jersey. They were engines running waiting for a slot..."Expect further news in half an hour." - i.e. not even a slot in half an hour, just news of one. They said they were trying to get to Jersey before it closed.

I wondered why they didn't just fly outside CAS, at least initially, but they were given the option and chose to wait.

The OP may find it an exercise in frustration being that close to London and may find themselves going 20 or 30 miles out of their way before being turned around. It's certainly not the quick option!
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By IMCR
#1827581
Their problem would have been staying within the speed limits OCAS, and paying for the fuel burn, with I guess no guarantee they would have been given a clearance at any point on the route. I guess they could have got a bit higher in Q41 following the changes and without a clearance, and maybe CIZ would have given them a pop up clearance as soon as they were in receipt of the flight. Short of that they would have been held down to below 55 and less at least to St Catherines. I wonder at what point CIZ has authority over a flight, is it only at the boundary or can they give a clearance earlier?

Paul you are quite correct, as I said earlier, on short journeys there is rarely any advantage with a CAS FP.
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By marioair
#1827590
I fly from Biggin.

If I’m flying northwest through to north east AND the destination is on the U.K. standard route list AND it’s not much more than routing OCAS then I’ll file IFR and when it works it’s great - much lower work load.

Flying west, east or south - waste of time.
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By Genghis the Engineer
#1827704
Parnassus wrote:Hello,

I am a 200 hours VFR pilot, not originally from the UK, and have been wondering about IFR for a while.
I would be very keen to be able to climb rapidly from Wycombe/Fairoaks, above weather (and hence in class A).
I have little interest in flying in proper IFR conditions and as such, would limit my flying to VFR Dep/Arr and potentially a layer crossing at say 3000 feet.

I am wondering if the EIR wouldn't be the best rating in my case.

I wanted to have your thoughts on when can you switch IFR after VFR take-off around London (EIR does not cover IFR departure, but can I say depart VFR from Fairoaks, fly 2 minutes and then switch to IFR / enter CAS)

Generally I want to understand if this EIR is suitable to just enjoy the Class A en-route and occasionally cross a layer.

Many thanks.


I would counsel against the EIR for the very simple reason that once in IMC you cannot absolutely guarantee a safe route into VMC. For that reason, whilst having to take an instrument departure is optional, you absolutely need the ability to fly an instrument approach. This is a much harder thing to do than flying en-route in IMC, but you absolutely must have the ability to do it.

Here in the UK we do have another rating, the IR(R) - it requires less training and less exam load, and as such of course offers less than the full IR - specifically you can't fly in class A, and you have a higher decision height from an approach.

However, it will, much more affordably, teach you all of the fundamental skills of instrument flying, and give you permission to use them. If you need to climb into cloud and route through it, it will equip you to do so safely, and with an affordable level of training and testing. Through the extra training, and the requirement to revalidate by test every 2 years, you'll also become a better pilot.

Later on, you can always convert to the full IR - I did, and I'm glad I did, but the reality is that virtually anything you might want to do within UK airspace, you can do on an IR(R). I managed very happily for ten years on an IR(R) and got a lot of use out of it.

And yes, join PPL/IR, they're a good and helpful group of grown-up aviators promoting instrument flying for personal use.

G
By Parnassus
#1827803
IMCR wrote:I remember the good old days with endless debates about flying VMC under IFR etc. It got everyone so excited it was worth slipping uo occassionally as long as the pop corn was ready. :lol:

Parnassus - what aircraft type are you thinking of using for said purpose?


Considering doing so in a Mooney M20J, non de-iced and ideally not carrying portable oxygen.

Basically trying to find the “easiest” way to get above weather at say FL90, usually southbound.

I understand that there is a greater chance of being allowed reasonably quickly is CAS when departing IFR so that rules out the EIR.

The answers were super helpful, I will definitely have a look at PPL/IR.
By Lefty
#1827814
Parnassus wrote:
IMCR wrote:I remember the good old days with endless debates about flying VMC under IFR etc. It got everyone so excited it was worth slipping uo occassionally as long as the pop corn was ready. :lol:

Parnassus - what aircraft type are you thinking of using for said purpose?


Considering doing so in a Mooney M20J, non de-iced and ideally not carrying portable oxygen.

Basically trying to find the “easiest” way to get above weather at say FL90, usually southbound.

I understand that there is a greater chance of being allowed reasonably quickly is CAS when departing IFR so that rules out the EIR.

The answers were super helpful, I will definitely have a look at PPL/IR.


@parnassus, even with a full IR, there simply are no quick and easy IFR departure routes from most of the airfields around the western side of the London. CTR. As I and others have said above, if departing from Denham, Wycombe, Waltham, Fairoaks or Blackbushe, on an IFR Flightplan, you are, without doubt, not going to be able to climb into controlled airspace for at least the first 30-40nm and for the most part you will be limited to either 2,400 or 3,400 (in class G) for that distance. If heading south, it is very rare to be able to climb into CAS until you reach Southampton, Goodwood or Seaford. So having an IR makes no difference until you get to the south coast. It is however somewhat better if departing north via WCO.

Strongly recommend PPL/IR, it is fantastic source of knowledge and advice.
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By Arrow IV
#1827880
Parnassus wrote:Considering doing so in a Mooney M20J, non de-iced and ideally not carrying portable oxygen.

Basically trying to find the “easiest” way to get above weather at say FL90, usually southbound.

I understand that there is a greater chance of being allowed reasonably quickly is CAS when departing IFR so that rules out the EIR.


The reality is that if you want to fly FL90 anywhere close the London then it means not just CAS but actually class A which means IR or EIR. From Fairoaks it then doesn’t matter much if you depart VFR or IFR as per Chevvron’s email the standard CAS routes are mostly inconvenient unless you fly SW-NW . And when you have that rating then at least in my experience how fast you get up is actually not that much of an urgent issue anymore. However ...
If you look these topics up on PPL/IR you’ll hear people talk more about mission profiles. Take me for example: I fly a Saratoga with an IR out of Fairoaks with regular trips to Germany and France, usually between April and November, not in heavy convective weather as my wife hates it, and not for work so 99%+ dispatch certainty isn’t that critical. For that IR/EIR no de-ice/no oxygen is perfectly fine (ie your Mooney) as I’m usually FL70/80. FL100 is the highest I need around Brussels/Schiphol/Frankfurt.
If you you want to fly those levels in winter you probably need to consider de-ice. If you want to fly alps or really long trips comfortably then oxygen is a real boon. On the other hand, if you fly mostly for fun predominantly in the UK then from Fairoaks the IR(R) solves almost all of your “normal British weather” problems. Etc etc.
The EIR is a fine rating and it does what it says on the tin, it’s just that most people have found that it’s only for a narrow band of mission profiles where it’s the best choice. The difference IR/EIR isn’t big esp. considering both are an order of magnitude more involved than IR(R) with regards to time/money/intensity. I started IR(R) which is great training and totally achievable for most people (incl money-wise). With longer international flights the benefit of having an IR was significant, and I did when I had 6 months to spare. In my case the EIR solves a problem I didn’t have.
By chevvron
#1827950
Lefty wrote:As I and others have said above, if departing from Fairoaks or Blackbushe, on an IFR Flightplan, you are, without doubt, not going to be able to climb into controlled airspace for at least the first 30-40nm and for the most part you will be limited to either 2,400 or 3,400 (in class G) for that distance. If heading south, it is very rare to be able to climb into CAS until you reach Southampton, Goodwood or Seaford. So having an IR makes no difference until you get to the south coast. It is however somewhat better if departing north via WCO.


Rubbish.
We developed procedures for IFR traffic joining CAS out of Fairoaks and Blackbushe over 20 years ago and as far as I know, even with the Farnborough CAS they are still valid and notified in the AIP.
It is only if you insist on routing eastbound via OCK that you will face a 'hold' below CAS at 2,400ft, on other routes you will get climb asap.
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By pplmeir
#1827982
There are no rules called light ifr. You are flying either ifr or vfr.

If you can avoid class A and stay in UK airspace and want to fly in compliance with ifr you may wish to consider the much cheaper ir(r)

Otherwise get a full ir..


There is light imc