Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829754
riverrock wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:With a SE2 plus FLARM Sub you will see 90%+ of alone those who have bought into EC with the rebate alone.

With a PAW within sight of an ATOM ground station you'll see 100% of those who have bought into EC plus many of those who have Mode-S only plus get alerted when someone who is Mode-C only is near by.


With only PAW out a 100% of non PAW traffic will not see you.

EC is about seeing and being seen.
#1829756
@Cub
I then conducted a very unscientific but nonetheless revealing exercise and interrogated each GA aircraft in turn to identify what transmission mode it was being tracked by. Of course, subscribers to the excellent PlaneFinder app or any of the other popular products can conduct the same exercise, for themselves. The results I found were very pleasantly surprising;

ADS-B = 13
FLARM = 2
MLAT = 1


That tells us incredibly little about the Mode S traffic to which Lee referred. The fact that one aircraft's position was provided by multilateration does not mean that the other aircraft were not carrying Mode S transponders i.e
We are still seeing about 80-90% of traffic which is ModeS
.

How many aircraft did not appear on your display because they were only carrying Mode S but did not fall into an area covered by multilateration receivers? You would not have been aware of any on an SE2 but you would with a Pilot Aware as a result of the bearingless target circle.

I trust your drone study is much more scientific and not fraught with such obvious statistical errors.
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829760
PaulSS wrote:
That tells us incredibly little about the Mode S traffic to which Lee referred. The fact that one aircraft's position was provided by multilateration does not mean that the other aircraft were not carrying Mode S transponders i.e
We are still seeing about 80-90% of traffic which is ModeS
.


I assume that Lee was referring to Mode S traffic that was not also emitting ADS-B otherwise his reference to detection via multilateration or bearingless target would have been superfluous?

PaulSS wrote: How many aircraft did not appear on your display because they were only carrying Mode S but did not fall into an area covered by multilateration receivers? You would not have been aware of any on an SE2 but you would with a Pilot Aware as a result of the bearingless target circle.


I have no idea how many Mode S only aircraft were not multilaterated and therefore not displayed but I do understand that PAW utilise the same source of multilateration data and therefore would also detect or not detect similar numbers. Perhaps you can confirm?

I am not particularly interested in which device could see what, except that both devices can directly detect ADS-B and all the data indicates a significant increase in the emission of that standard within the GA community.
#1829774
kanga wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:.. the other one I fly has Mode C. Two owners/pilots, still undecided, and looking at the remaining funding pot, we are not alone! BUT, I have moved from the "no" pile to the "undecided" pile, and my decision will probably influence the other pilot.


.. so you get one (of SE2/PAW in their latest iterations), your colleague gets the other, each of you claims the rebate, and you come to some bilateral arrangement to share the aggregate net cost ? :wink:


And what do we do if we both want to fly our own aeroplanes at the same time? Close formation?
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By seanxair
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829794
Miscellaneous wrote:I've had mine since Nov, still don't know if it works. :lol:


I've run both PAW and SE2 a few days ago on separate tablets in the garden. Both seemed to show much the same traffic, all high level jet stuff as nothing GA was happening. One exception was a single local aircraft on a maintenance flight which was on PAW but not SE2. Cross referenced with FR24 (which I always think is moderate) and 360Radar (very good generally).

Both were pretty accurate in terms of where I was situated but SE2 altitude was overreading by 30ft. PAW has always been bang on in my experience. But these are static tests so maybe movement helps.

When far enough apart PAW could see my tail number so presume SE2 was transmitting ADSB out ok.

PAW much quicker on GPS lock but no dropouts from either as far as I could tell.

Pretty unscientific laymans experiment.

Edited as I never can spell separate :oops:
Last edited by seanxair on Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
#1829796
Lots of spare time at the moment, Sean? :wink:

When updating my my SE2 I left it by the window for a few hours keeping an eye on FR24 for passing traffic. Nothing! :lol:

I have a thing about altitude accuracy, how did you determine the accuracy?

seanxair wrote:Both were pretty accurate in terms of where I was situated but SE2 altitude was overreading by 30ft. PAW has always been bang on in my experience. But these are static tests so maybe movement helps.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829798
How do experienced users set the altitude filter. When I first switched on I was seeing airliners trundling across the sky. I looked at the filter which was set at 43000 ft. I reduced it to 10,000 but I don't know quite what it means....is it AMSL??
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By tnowak
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829805
To save me trawling through pages of forum posts, where is the best place to look to see where ATOM grid stations are located and their operational status?
I got good results of my SE2 test (on Sat- 40 Km max "range") using the PAW VECTOR program and would like confirmation of where I think the stations are located.
#1829811
tnowak wrote:To save me trawling through pages of forum posts, where is the best place to look to see where ATOM grid stations are located and their operational status?
I got good results of my SE2 test (on Sat- 40 Km max "range") using the PAW VECTOR program and would like confirmation of where I think the stations are located.


https://aircrew.co.uk/playback/groundst ... 1614596400

But you need to do some detective work. Not all those shown are working or are as they seem. For example PWBanbury seems to be permanently offline and I am told PWBicester is FLARM only. The best way I have found is to look for known traffic that should be in range and then use the selectable options to see whether anything is seen by that traffic. Pretty quickly I realised that quite a few of them aren’t working as well as others or aren’t working at all. :thumright:
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By seanxair
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829822
Miscellaneous wrote:Lots of spare time at the moment, Sean? :wink:

When updating my my SE2 I left it by the window for a few hours keeping an eye on FR24 for passing traffic. Nothing! :lol:

I have a thing about altitude accuracy, how did you determine the accuracy?


My (home) office window is about 200m from the end of my airstrip and have used various methods of getting an exact altitude for it. Combination of GPS, web based tools, maps and altimeters!

This is a useful site to play around with. Accuracy isn't bad +/- 5ft maybe?

https://www.freemaptools.com/elevation-finder.htm

A bit of spare time lockdown induced :(
By Cottie
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829840
gaznav wrote:
https://aircrew.co.uk/playback/groundst ... 1614596400

But you need to do some detective work. Not all those shown are working or are as they seem. For example PWBanbury seems to be permanently offline and I am told PWBicester is FLARM only. The best way I have found is to look for known traffic that should be in range and then use the selectable options to see whether anything is seen by that traffic. Pretty quickly I realised that quite a few of them aren’t working as well as others or aren’t working at all. :thumright:


Not quite true, PWBiceste will transmit FLARM and MLAT data.

It does not appear to have a 1090 receiver fitted so will not itself receive ADS-B, Mode S or Cap1391 transmissions and forward that on to add to the MLAT data.

It will still transmit the MLATed data contributed by other sensors.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1829933
For info, they processed my rebate application today, submitted 17th Feb (money due in a few days) so I'd say thats pretty good.

They included a PDF, asking us to record any EC events or failure here:
https://apply.caa.co.uk/CAAPortal/servl ... =fcs1521v2
such as feeling you didn't see the full picture, or near miss (presumably Airprox should be reported elsewhere).
Worth doing to give the CAA a flavour as to how well the devices are working.

Mind you - they don't ask for positive stories!
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