[NDB_hold]

No need to apologise - that was interesting.

[matthew_w100]

Yeah - currently downloading the Thailand scenery into X-Plane so I can give it a try!

[CloudHound]

downloading the Thailand scenery

Which Bangkok Bar - the Meerkat?

[simoon]

I Called them yesterday to book some ILS's but apparently its down until maybe spring next year.
when I asked why they said it was complicated.
anyone know whats gone wrong ?

[marioair]

It’s been out for aaaaaages. They have the RNP. Even without LPV I wonder whether they’re thinking if it’s even worth having the ILS?

Of course, if you fly in the SE it’s perfect for IR revals

[Bathman]

On the grounds that the ILS minima is pretty similar to the NDB/DME and the RNP is there any point?

[NDB_hold]

Well quite. And maintaining the ILS is expensive. Probably not worth it just for the IR revalidations (I agree it’s handy to be able to do multiple approaches at the same airfield).

[G-JWTP]

I Called them yesterday to book some ILS's but apparently its down until maybe spring next year.
when I asked why they said it was complicated.
anyone know whats gone wrong ?

Phone Southend.

There pretty good for training.

They sometimes give you free SRA's if they need controller training or revalidations

G-JWTP

[Ibra]

On the grounds that the ILS minima is pretty similar to the NDB/DME and the RNP is there any point?

On OCH mismatch,

- The ILS21 is offset one (to avoid D141) and has obstacles that would penetrate 3D surface and visual segment bellow 200ft on short final, it require a turn before crossing runway threshold to avoid R063/D044, so a relatively high 418ft OCH

- The NDB21 sits near sea, they decided to have it offset to stay fully in land to avoid any coastal refraction but the 2D protection surface and visual segment are free of obstacles at 300ft, so it end up relatively low 408 OCH (it should be 106+295)

- If they had LNAV/VNAV or LPV it would had higher minima than LNAV as obstacles penetrating DH tend to blow up 3D & precession minima way more 2D & no-precision minima

With RNP21 LNAV, one still need to plan NDB or ILS as backup in the case where USA switch off NAVSTAR for UK & EU

On getting ride of ILS, things may go south for commercial & public transport during flight planning, as ILS planning minima are more generous than NDB/LNAV planning minima:

- Outbound: they can’t takeoff if METAR ceiling is low than NDB/LNAV minima while they can for ILS, only METAR visibility for takeoff is required and ceiling is irrelevant for ILS

- Inbound: they can’t start engine if TAF ceiling is low than NDB/LNAV minima while with ILS ceiling does not matter, you can always depart and if you have RVR you can approach, if you see the runway at DH you can land (you can see runway lights from above BKN ceiling on ILS guidance, it’s very common )

- To chose Lydd as alternate without ILS you need extra addon to NDB/LNAV on TAF: VIS + 1000m & Ceiling + 200ft

Without GPS guidance, the NDB has to be hand flown and will require regular practice in IMC (maybe once or twice a month), I had done it once in low ceiling & visibility after a long break, I won’t do it again, with ILS/VOR you can leave Georges (AutoPilot or Flight Director) to do some of the hard work while you regain IMC hand flying currency, with GPS/AP everything is damn easy even after 6month break…

Although to be fair, Lydd has good weather: it sits near Dungeness, the only “UK desert”, historically in EGMD is VMC all the time (90% of last year METAR have VIS > 5km & Ceiling > 1500ft), it’s sunny when Biggin or Shoreham as miserable but Southend is usually fine, if you ever divert there you will find that it’s nowhere the “London-Ashford Airport”, it’s north of 380£ taxi bills and 3h to get home

[Iceman]

[ if you ever divert there you will find that it’s nowhere the “London-Ashford Airport”, it’s north of 380£ taxi bills and 3h to get home

Or if you land or divert to Lydd on arrival from somewhere that requires border force on arrival, they might be kind enough to drop you at Ashford railway station as they have to come down from Ashford to see you. Had that once or twice .

The ILS was fine back in May this year. Presumably, the problems have crept in since. Is it their intention to fix it ? I quite like the procedural ILS ‘cross-country’ .

Iceman

[marioair]

I can see a new “mig alley” for IR training flights between Southend and Lydd now

[OpenCirrus619]

Just a reminder that anyone flying the ILS procedure, at Lydd, in VFR needs to keep a really good lookout when on the northern part of the arc - it passes really close to an active gliding site.
In particular the "direct arrival from the north" passes almost overhead.

Remember you must give way to gliders.

OC619

[Ibra]

Remember you must give way to gliders.

The DME arc is pretty high for Challok, on "rules of way", I was taught not to fly gliders in published IFR routes in VFR (e.g. ILS feathers and DME arcs), also not to fly gliders in clouds inside controlled airspace or 500ft/3nm near ATS routes OCAS or 10nm near airfields and winch site, the only exception was a direct crossing of Class Alpha Airway at the base by ATC clearance when QNH & 1013 delta differ to my favor on high pressure soaring days

One has to remember while it's Golf, IFR aircraft, especially with paying pax, can't fly outside IFR published routes (+/-5nm on Airway and +/-1nm in a DME arc) even in good weather, I am sure there is plenty of room to avoid any traffic that is there as per "rules of the way" but don't expect they would go to the "unprotected area"...

Also, it would be daft to fly gliders inside or outside clouds at 500ft in front of ILS in Golf right outside ATZ or inside DME arc or some "protected hold" and hope IFR will give way

Lydd is pure procedural but elsewhere ATC may give radar services like de-confliction & traffic services but they don't have primary radar or would assume a primary target like glider is bellow controlled airspace or platform altitude and IFR crew rarely look outside

The sky is 3D and very big above 4kft when people fly randomly but it dramatically shrinks when following a DME arc at 3200ft amsl or a published visual circuit at 1000ft agl

[OpenCirrus619]

Glider can be found anywhere up to cloud base (with the exception of cloud flying) OR the base of controlled airspace, whichever is lower - in this case 5500'.

I completely agree that any well trained glider pilot will stay well clear of:
- ILS feathers
- Holds
- Controlled airspace (with the exception you mentioned)
marked on a half-mil chart.
However the ILS procedure (arc) is not marked - so you can only reasonably expect glider pilots who also have a power instrument rating, or have local knowledge, to avoid the arc.

All I'm trying to do, here, is raise awareness - I realise the placement of the ILS procedure is "sub-optimal" in this respect.

OC619

[Ibra]

However the ILS procedure (arc) is not marked - so you can only reasonably expect glider pilots

I agree that is the real problem, the feathers are shown at airports but one rarely sees the extent of the procedure (DME arc for ILS or RNP Y or T legs for GPS), more awareness at the club would help

Procedural ILS at Lydd is poorly designed from the stone age, they don’t have radar to make a tight one but they could replace that ILS intercept with GPS 10nm intercept instead of 14nm DME arc and eating half of UK SE airspace

To be fair IFR public transport flights and coastguard AW139 helicopter that operates at Lydd know how to use GPS very well (they fly GPS21 at Lydd when weather is good and they fly ILS13 at LeTouquet that has GPS 11nm intercept and, they rarely take the DME arc as it costs lot of fuel to customers and taxpayers), it's IFR training flights in PA28 in VMC who still love those 14DME arcs (apparently it increases fuel burn and your instrument training hours with zero safety benefit, off-route IFR is bread & butter in PA28 )