Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By patowalker
#1827656
C1FF wrote:patowalker
"Types of licences" and "weight limits" nothing about medical criterior.

ie you can fly a 2000kg part 21 aircraft with a lapl if you meet the 5700kg medical criterior with a PMD.

As I previously said, the CAA need to get their act together and issue definitive rules.


Keep me out of it. I never mentioned licences and weight limits. :D
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By Gustosomerset
#1827660
ls8pilot wrote:I can only assume maybe they have a trainee or work-experience person putting this stuff together!

It reads as if the website has been drafted by someone with only a slim grasp of English, let alone any knowledge of law. And, while on that hobby horse, pedantically, 'criterion' (s), 'criteria' (pl).
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By Sooty25
#1827713
GAFlyer4Fun wrote:... perhaps the programmer of the monolithic computer system has retired? :lol:


It was the contractor converting the metric abacus back to imperial who screwed up, some one mentioned a bakers dozen at the wrong moment!
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By Sooty25
#1827715
Forfoxake wrote:
I particularly like (f)"any history of...new medical treatment"(d)!


Technically speaking, once you've been discharged post surgery, it is historical!
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By JAFO
#1827726
It seems to me as though there was a genuine mistake, it has been cleared up and now a lot of people are looking for reasons why they might not be allowed to fly or are picking holes in the way it was written for no discernible benefit.

There are enough things stopping us flying right now, stop looking for more.
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By tailbob
#1827752
The issue I see is that the 5700kg criteria were written widely to cover all illnesses and thus any young person who could faithfully sign up to them was fit to learn to fly. This was the basis of changing the NPPL GP counter signed declaration to the self declaration with no GP involvement.
Then on 4 October 2018 ORS4 1283 was published permitting the use of the PMD with EASA aicraft along with the continued use of the NPPL with EASA aircraft. This specifically excluded student pilots and continued the 2000kg weight limit of the NPPL / LAPL.
I believe it was some time in 2019 that the PMD was split into two categories with the easier sub 2000kg section, now that student pilots were excluded and older pilots would have difficulty making a declaration to the 5700kg criteria. It appears that the legal basis of this split was not present and the CAA Medical Department are now having to decide how this can be resolved. Are we writing criteria to allow student pilots to self declare or are we enabling older pilots to continue to fly without requiring an AME visit?
By patowalker
#1827754
Reading this and other threads, I think lockdown has affected some pilots to the extent that they should resubmit their PMD, ticking:
I hereby withdraw my previously submitted medical declaration as I do not meet
the medical requirements for a Group 1 Ordinary Driving Licence issued by the
DVLA and I am subject to one or more disqualifying medical conditions
:)
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By ls8pilot
#1827761
JAFO wrote:It seems to me as though there was a genuine mistake, it has been cleared up and now a lot of people are looking for reasons why they might not be allowed to fly or are picking holes in the way it was written for no discernible benefit.

There are enough things stopping us flying right now, stop looking for more.


If you have an NPPL and fly non-Part 21 aircraft you are correct. If you want to fly Part 21 aircraft, especially gliders, then there are significant changes.

The change in standards (and for gliding it is a change) looks like in the gliding world it will impact all student pilots and about 20% of qualified pilots (based on estimates at our club); This was a change imposed on BGA members with zero consultation and no rationale. From a purely practical view it's very unlikely anyone will get a GP appointment at the moment so this is a couple of thousand people needing an AME visit..... The particular worry is that in case of any insurance claim the insurer may well be quite picky about whether you were correct in signing a PMD, so I think this is more important than just minor bickering.
Last edited by ls8pilot on Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By ls8pilot
#1827763
ls8pilot wrote:If you have an NPPL and fly non-Part 21 aircraft you are correct. If you want to fly Part 21 aircraft, especially gliders, then there are significant changes.

The change in standards (and for gliding it is a change) looks like in the gliding world it will impact all student pilots and about 20% of qualified pilots (based on estimates at our club); This was a change imposed on BGA members with zero consultation and no rationale. From a purely practical view it's very unlikely anyone will get a GP appointment at the moment so this is a couple of thousand people needing an AME visit..... The particular worry is that in case of any insurance claim the insurer may well be quite picky about whether you were correct in signing a PMD, so I think this is more important than just minor bickering.


I should add that my working assumption is that we continue under current BGA rules (there being no legal requirement for licence or medical) until 8th December 2021, when the mandatory SPL comes into force, so this should not stop anyone flying this summer.
Last edited by ls8pilot on Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By oldbiggincfi
#1827775
ls8pilot wrote:
JAFO wrote:It seems to me as though there was a genuine mistake, it has been cleared up and now a lot of people are looking for reasons why they might not be allowed to fly or are picking holes in the way it was written for no discernible benefit.

There are enough things stopping us flying right now, stop looking for more.


If you have an NPPL and fly non-Part 21 aircraft you are correct. If you want to fly Part 21 aircraft, especially gliders, then there are significant changes.

The change in standards (and for gliding it is a change) looks like in the gliding world it will impact all student pilots and about 20% of qualified pilots (based on a survey at our club); This was a change imposed on BGA members with zero consultation and no rationale. From a purely practical view it's very unlikely anyone will get a GP appointment at the moment so this is a couple of thousand people needing an AME visit..... The particular worry is that in case of any insurance claim the insurer may well be quite picky about whether you were correct in signing a PMD, so I think this is more important than just minor bickering.



For the life of me - I cannot understand why gliders are classified as Part21 .
Somebody please explain that rationale.
I think the need for Medical changes in the Gliding World will result in the demise of many clubs including those attached to Universities .
Remember, the UK has Juniors competing at World level - even a world champion.
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By ls8pilot
#1827784
oldbiggincfi wrote:

For the life of me - I cannot understand why gliders are classified as Part21 .
Somebody please explain that rationale.
I think the need for Medical changes in the Gliding World will result in the demise of many clubs including those attached to Universities .
Remember, the UK has Juniors competing at World level - even a world champion.


Gliders (at least the majority of them apart from a few older Slingsby and EoN types) all got caught up in the EASA CofA / ARC transition back when the UK started to adopt EASA legislation. As the majority of the types in use are from German manufacturers then their whole maintenance / support is based around EASA. BGA decided to go along with this maintenance regime as I guess it was much easier and difficult to argue against and as I understand it there was no other option possible.

In actuality once BGA had changed the paperwork (and done a lot of other background work) the actual process for an owner of doing an annual/ARC under BGA inspector supervision is pretty similar now to what it always was - there is a bit more paperwork and a couple of hours extra work checking stuff for the inspector, but fairly tolerable.

So very few gliders in use are "Annex 2", most were EASA and are now Part 21. Unfortunately this decision has had a knock-on to licencing and medical requirements which I don't think anyone appreciated at the time.

My understanding is that if your aircraft is an "EASA Type" then there is no way of running it under any other airworthiness regime in the UK. It (an EASA CofA) used to make import and export of 2nd hand gliders fairly easy, but of course now the VAT issue has pretty much put paid to that anyway!

(PS Non part 21 types include all Slingsby gliders prior to the Skylark 3 I think...)
By Edward Bellamy
#1827786
For the life of me - I cannot understand why gliders are classified as Part21 .


@oldbiggincfi

You'd have to ask whoever wrote the EASA Basic Regulation all those years ago. When the line around EASA was drawn it was basically included everything except very old, very small or amateur built. I cannot remember the exact cut off for sailplanes but it's slightly lighter than aeroplanes I think. All those rules are still with us of course, just with CAA/DfT written instead of EASA.

The change in standards (and for gliding it is a change) looks like in the gliding world it will impact all student pilots and about 20% of qualified pilots (based on a survey at our club); This was a change imposed on BGA members with zero consultation and no rationale.


@ls8pilot are you saying that 20% of qualified pilots would not be able to do PMD on Part-21 with the current wording?
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By ls8pilot
#1827791
Edward Bellamy wrote:
The change in standards (and for gliding it is a change) looks like in the gliding world it will impact all student pilots and about 20% of qualified pilots (based on a survey at our club); This was a change imposed on BGA members with zero consultation and no rationale.


@ls8pilot are you saying that 20% of qualified pilots would not be able to do PMD on Part-21 with the current wording?


That is based on a quick best estimate at my own club - AFAIK the BGA is gathering input on this so will have a more accurate figure for the CAA. It does of course depend on how you interpret some of the criteria, for example what is "medical treatment" , what is "recent" and what is "history of...." but given the age profile of most qualified pilots (60% of our members are over 50, and the proportion of our qualified pilots will be more like 70%-80%) then you can assume that a significant portion have had some sort of medical treatment, cardiac problems or minor surgery in the last couple of years. I'm taking a medium case assumption that "New Medical Treatment" meant something you had to visit a hospital for in the last couple of years, rather than a simple GP visit.

Also note that the current wording implies all student pilots (gliding) will need a LAPL medical (or better). Currently we work on a simple self-declare system that says you meet DVLA Class 1 standards, normally backed up by a driving licence (or alternative declaration if you dont drive for cadets and the like).

So if you add in student pilots it will impact around 30% of our total membership. I know the BGA are very much "on the case " with this, and we do have some time to sort it out, so I'm quite hopeful that either we will get the 2000Kg rule back or at the very least some more sensible criteria or clearer interpretation of the criteria. As for the student pilots .... most clubs offer some sort of 'package to solo' that is around the £1000 mark (much cheaper for cadets), adding £70-£100 for a medical on top this will be a big hit, especially for 14 year olds. I wonder what the ATC will do ?
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By JAFO
#1827801
@ls8pilot - you are quite right, of course, I did not mean those affected by the changes, most notably glider pilots. You were quite right to pick me up on that. I just felt as though some people almost seemed to be looking for excuses to ground themselves.

I hope that all in the glider fraternity affected by this get a solution very soon and can enjoy a great summer.
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By flybymike
#1827811
I believe it was some time in 2019 that the PMD was split into two categories with the easier sub 2000kg section,


The sub 2k category has been around a lot longer than that. I’m pretty sure it was introduced within a few weeks of the initial 2016 introduction of the PMD.
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