Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By andytk58
#1826260
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
JAFO wrote:@Flyin'Dutch' - what you are forgetting is that there are probably plenty of people out there who haven't had a medical as you could get an NPPL ab initio with a GP's certificate (which didn't require a medical, just a knowledge of medical history) and then transfer to a PMD and an LAPL with a PMD.


Errr, no.

To get an NPPL medical dec the GP needed to consider the candidate fit to hold an HGV Medical. No GP would sign that without being pretty sure the patient's meeting that standard. All GPs do HGV medicals and many took the view they could only sign that off if they did the medical assessment completely (and get paid for it).

No doubt there will have been some GPs that signed these without a thought but that would have been an insignificant minority.


Hmmm, I'm one of those people that have never had a medical.
NPPL(M) with a GP self declaration for which they just signed and charged me a tenner after I explained it was just permission to drive an HGV. No examination.
I've since added SSEA rating to my licence and I never bothered with the LAPL as I didn't fancy paying 150 quid plus for a AME medical as it was at time.

The best bit is that my self declaration is valid from when I was 29 (date of issue) all the way through to my 45 birthday. 16 years of flying with only a tenner in fees. :-D

I've no intention of ever flying EASA metal I'm happy with permit and micros, more so if the micros agree on the 600kg standard.

Andy
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By oldbiggincfi
#1826267
Dodo wrote:Declare a Mayday and divert to LGW!
Dodo wrote:Declare a Mayday and divert to LGW!


That used to be the case when there was a GA place to park

Sooty25 wrote:the last thing I'd do is an "ad hock" flight across 20 odd miles of sea, with 3 passengers that probably don't have any survival equipment or training, in an aeroplane with a single door!

As it's sea fog, I'd be turning north and landing anywhere other than France!


He could see the sun shining on the French coast and it didn't look too far and also went to LT for lunch a few months ago so knew the ropes .

Robin500 wrote:I would say Steddyeddy is in the S**t. :(


Perfect VMC could see the ground but not where to land
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By PaulSS
#1826290
I have heard of people leaving clubs because they didn't want to see their doctors in case they were told they shouldn't drive.


And these same people, knowing they probably shouldn't be behind the wheel, think it's okay to be let loose in an aeroplane :?

I really can appreciate the love of flying and why it would be SO hard to give up but, really, if you don't think you should be in a car then it is time to just fly with someone else in the machine.
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By ls8pilot
#1826298
Well looks like Pete Stratten and co. are on the case, latest news on the BGA Website

Following Governments publication of SI/2021-10 permitting the use of medical declarations by SPL holders, the CAA has chosen to modify its Pilot Medical Declaration (PMD) criteria.
..............
While the BGA has of course long sought and is highly supportive of the UK Governments decision to widen the scope of PMD use to UK SPL holders, we are concerned that the following statement has been made by the CAA GA Unit – “holders of a Part-SFCL SPL can if they wish make a pilot medical declaration (PMD) in accordance with the <5700kg criteria. Under the current terms of UK law, the <2000kg criteria cannot be used by those licence holders.”

Of course SPL pilots should be able to declare to the <2000kg limit; the aircraft they fly are <2000kg. The BGA is challenging the CAA’s approach to this important issue. Further information will be supplied as and when it becomes available.


@oldbiggincfi makes a good point about those who will not qualify for an easy conversion to an SPL: to do this you need a Bronze C + cross country endorsement (or actual XC experience if your Bronze pre-dated the endorsement). A number of glider pilots, who really just want to fly locally, do not have these qualifications and simply fly solo locally under supervision. Clubs have been holding off the medical implications as the BGA had been expecting a simple transition to the PMD, but given the problems around the PMD and the fact that PMD appears not to be valid for initial training, it is now unclear what the impact on these members will be. This is an issue - these are often the people who do a lot of the work around the club, spending long days on the field while others (myself included :oops: ) swan off on XC flights!

The only slight alleviation I can see is that the UK Part SFCL regulations only apply to Part 21 gliders, older non-Part 21 gliders simply fall under the ANO which still says

Flight crew licence requirement – exception for non-EASA gliders
146. A person may act as the pilot in command or co-pilot of a non-EASA glider without being the holder of an appropriate licence if the flight is not for the purpose of public transport.

So maybe the answer is to buy a vintage type and ignore the lot ! Skylark 3F anyone ?
By GAFlyer4Fun
#1826306
oldbiggincfi wrote:Here's a hypothetical scenario for the forum to tear apart.

Questions answered best I can
:eye:

Steddyeddy, .....


Hypothetically, Steddyeddy will have done the following before flight:

Checked licence and medical valid for destination and alternates.
Calculated W&B and fuel endurance for the fuel load appropriate for 4 adults onboard.
Planned alternates in case of diversion (not just weather but runway becomes closed due to obstruction after departure).
Assessed the amount of daylight time remaining at departure/destination and alternates, with consideration of earlier darkness if low cloud towards the setting sun.
Done a notam/weather check for departure/destination and alternates.

If Steddyeddy selected L2K, not only is he crossing an expanse of water unplanned so probably without liferaft and lifejackets when out of gliding range, and without a FPL for international border crossing, and possibly without all the paperwork to be carried on board for an international flight, there might be a headwind resulting in it being dark by time arrive at L2K. Depending on cloudbase and freezing level, might be cruising outside of radar coverage if some other problem develops and needs assistance.

Hypothetically if all survive the arrival at L2K, two of the POB wont be carrying passports as they were there by chance and not expecting to end up in France, Steadyeddy may have been using a driving licence photocard as photo ID for pilot licence so not carrying his passport, and Steadyeddy wife probably not carrying a passport either. Someone will be racking up hotel bills awaiting passports to arrive before being allowed to leave France.
Do not assume the Friendly French will let any of you leave without a passport. Even before Brexit they refused to let me leave when my father lost my passport having successfully presented it for inspection a few minutes earlier! (Fortunately an honest person found it and handed it in rather than keeping it....).
The Flying school are miffed they have a plane out of the country without the correct paperwork and unknown return date so they fly another plane out with a spare pilot that can fly their plane back.... and give Steadyeddy the bill for that too.
Steadyeddy and passengers all have to pay for some other transportation to get back home once the Friendly French permit them to leave.

Hypothetically the negatives are stacking up for the L2K option.... ringing any alarm bells?

Hypothetically Steddyeddy seems to only have considered diversion options whilst on the fly and only to the east of Shoreham.
Hypothetically there are alternatives to the west, and also inland to the north and NW, or was the weather bad over there too, ..... bummer all those holes in the cheese lined up.

Hypothetically they all survived a very expensive experience so Steadyeddy can sleep well at night.... :sleeping:
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By Crash one
#1826308
PaulSS wrote:
I have heard of people leaving clubs because they didn't want to see their doctors in case they were told they shouldn't drive.


And these same people, knowing they probably shouldn't be behind the wheel, think it's okay to be let loose in an aeroplane :?

I really can appreciate the love of flying and why it would be SO hard to give up but, really, if you don't think you should be in a car then it is time to just fly with someone else in the machine.



It depends on how old you are.
When you get to 70+ and 80+ you are running out of time.
It’s easy for someone in their 30/40s to criticise and make these suggestions to us oldies. Try thinking about how we feel about it!
Personally I think for a pilot that’s been flying for years, the brain work involved in flying is a lot less than driving today. Surrounded by teenage lunatics and having to make split second decisions and actions to stay alive!
terryws, Sooty25, flybymike liked this
By GAFlyer4Fun
#1826326
... its not just the youngsters that have bad driving habits. Plenty out there of a wide age range that will do a stupid manoeuvre to get their car one car further up the line of traffic for the next few miles. Its not going to be good for someones blood pressure and patience.

More positively there are some very old motorcyclists out there that have become very adept at effortlessly going with the flow, making good progress and anticipating the actions of others and not taking stupid risks. Its their freedom too.
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By PaulSS
#1826329
It’s easy for someone in their 30/40s to criticise and make these suggestions to us oldies. Try thinking about how we feel about it!


I did and I'm > 30/40s:
I really can appreciate the love of flying and why it would be SO hard to give up


Personally I think for a pilot that’s been flying for years, the brain work involved in flying is a lot less than driving today.


Motor actions are more likely to lead to complacency than competency and if you don't have the reactions for driving then the same applies for flying.

I am not, for one moment, suggesting that ALL 'oldies' are forced to give up their hobby/passion. There are some incredibly sprightly older pilots out there and long may they continue to take to the skies. What I am saying, is that if you won't see a doctor because you know he's going to pull your driving licence then it is irresponsible to think that flying is okay; no matter how much you don't want that to be true. A different path needs to be taken and, probably, one of the favourites must be to fly with a pilot friend who is not afraid of a trip to scab lifter.
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By Crash one
#1826365
There is an uncomfortable amount of ageism out there, and most of it comes from younger people who think that older people should give up earlier because they think that we are “past it” for some reason.
As a result us oldies feel defensive or under threat if the regulators decide to listen to these views.
Depending on the attitude of their own doctor their lives could be turned upside down, or perhaps not, but, we still feel under threat from that direction even though they may have nothing to worry about.

I got pulled over a few weeks ago for having fog lights on when there was no fog. (It was foggy a few miles back). Nothing was done except to remind me that apparently this is against the law, but, I was asked to demonstrate that I knew where all the switches were and asked to read the number on a car parked at the appropriate distance, which I did with no problem at all, why? Why was I given an eye test for no relevant reason? The only reason I can think of is because I am older!
This is why I am defensive.
By C1FF
#1826369
I have not personally seen "negative" ageism in GA circles, if anything just the opposite. I do however have significant concerns, irrespective of age, of anyone who is thinking about flying and says they do not wish to see their GP because they might stop them driving a car .
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By Sooty25
#1826371
ls8pilot wrote:Well looks like Pete Stratten and co. are on the case, latest news on the BGA Website

Following Governments publication of SI/2021-10 permitting the use of medical declarations by SPL holders, the CAA has chosen to modify its Pilot Medical Declaration (PMD) criteria.
..............
While the BGA has of course long sought and is highly supportive of the UK Governments decision to widen the scope of PMD use to UK SPL holders, we are concerned that the following statement has been made by the CAA GA Unit – “holders of a Part-SFCL SPL can if they wish make a pilot medical declaration (PMD) in accordance with the <5700kg criteria. Under the current terms of UK law, the <2000kg criteria cannot be used by those licence holders.”

Of course SPL pilots should be able to declare to the <2000kg limit; the aircraft they fly are <2000kg. The BGA is challenging the CAA’s approach to this important issue. Further information will be supplied as and when it becomes available.


@oldbiggincfi makes a good point about those who will not qualify for an easy conversion to an SPL: to do this you need a Bronze C + cross country endorsement (or actual XC experience if your Bronze pre-dated the endorsement). A number of glider pilots, who really just want to fly locally, do not have these qualifications and simply fly solo locally under supervision. Clubs have been holding off the medical implications as the BGA had been expecting a simple transition to the PMD, but given the problems around the PMD and the fact that PMD appears not to be valid for initial training, it is now unclear what the impact on these members will be. This is an issue - these are often the people who do a lot of the work around the club, spending long days on the field while others (myself included :oops: ) swan off on XC flights!

The only slight alleviation I can see is that the UK Part SFCL regulations only apply to Part 21 gliders, older non-Part 21 gliders simply fall under the ANO which still says

Flight crew licence requirement – exception for non-EASA gliders
146. A person may act as the pilot in command or co-pilot of a non-EASA glider without being the holder of an appropriate licence if the flight is not for the purpose of public transport.

So maybe the answer is to buy a vintage type and ignore the lot ! Skylark 3F anyone ?


NPPL (SP) would fix it!

and it would make it easier for me to start gliding again!
By Crash one
#1826395
C1FF wrote:I have not personally seen "negative" ageism in GA circles, if anything just the opposite. I do however have significant concerns, irrespective of age, of anyone who is thinking about flying and says they do not wish to see their GP because they might stop them driving a car .


I would agree with that, except it’s not the GA community that we need to worry about, it’s the regulators, police, etc who make the rules based on total risk aversion rather than risk management/assessment.
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By oldbiggincfi
#1826404
Crash one wrote:
C1FF wrote:I have not personally seen "negative" ageism in GA circles, if anything just the opposite. I do however have significant concerns, irrespective of age, of anyone who is thinking about flying and says they do not wish to see their GP because they might stop them driving a car .


I would agree with that, except it’s not the GA community that we need to worry about, it’s the regulators, police, etc who make the rules based on total risk aversion rather than risk management/assessment.


For many in the gliding community who are happy to continue flying and driving with the blessing of their GP . It's having to go to an AME because the GP doesn't have the inclination to get involved with Aviation .
As we have seen from earlier posts , frequently an AME , who has never seen the Medical Applicant prior , will ask for specific tests , often conflicting with GP .
These take time , could be expensive , leaving the now patient with doubts as to health until the results arrive .
The option is to give up flying .
User avatar
By ls8pilot
#1826430
Sooty25 wrote:
NPPL (SP) would fix it!

and it would make it easier for me to start gliding again!


I thought that an NPPL(SP) would be the answer too, but the current mess means you cant fly a Part 21 aircraft with an NPPL (I believe), so that option is out for practical purposes. We all seem to be caught in a classic "catch 22" situation.....

For all practical purposes everything about gliding (airworthiness, training, licencing and operations) is managed and overseen by the BGA, CAA does not add value as they have minimal knowledge of the area - AFAIK there is no evidence that all of this licencing and medical maze will reduce risks - simply add costs.

Let's hope we get a sensible resolution.....
flybymike, januspilot, FieldLander and 2 others liked this
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