Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1823007
ls8pilot wrote:A question... Assuming Brize plans go ahead we will have large areas of Class E (or "E+").

I assume the new Class G definition applies in TMZ/RMZ in Class G, but what is the definition of IMC in Class E?


The original post contains the answer:

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493%20SI%202020-07.pdf

The new rules ONLY apply for;

1. Class D
2. A CTR
3. Below 3000ft AMSL (or 1000ft above terrain)
4. Day only

3000ft-FL100 is not changing.

Don’t forget that a CTR cannot be Class E.
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User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1823027
johnm wrote:VFR traffic does not require clearance to enter class E airspace but must comply with ATC instructions.

Does this imply that entry to class E is only permitted by radio equipped aircraft?
#1823032
johnm wrote:Class E airspace is for IFR and VFR use. [...]. VFR traffic does not require clearance to enter class E airspace but must comply with ATC instructions.


I don't think that's true. VFR you don't have to be in contact with ATC, how are they going to pass instructions?
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User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1823043
flybymike wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:True but when there were GA schools and residents at Southampton, I used to be in my garden just west of Romsey vrp, and on a hazy day, viz about 6-7 km, and invariably I would spot the odd one circling overhead, having mistakenly thought that they had to ask for svfr in such vis, whilst others before and after were direct to right base vfr - and sometimes I had been the vfr inbound, having to watch out for the guy ahead who had been asked to "orbit outside" as he had asked for svfr without realising the predictable result

But in those dim and distant days wasn’t a minimum 10k vis required for a SVFR clearance?
(My memory harks back to the old Channel Islands Class A/rule 21 requiring 10k for SVFR entry)

It was, but either they had an IMC rating (as they were based at Soton) or as usual they simply didn't know that... in those days I used to make that point in my PPL Masterclasses, when it came to knowing the rules - showing a diagram of Romsey, and the EGHI CTR, and pointing out it was dangerous to have to pass these outside-orbitters in haze, and also, that many of them were probably illegally asking for SVFR anyway!
When I was coming in a couple of miles behind an instructor from another school one day, 7km announced by ATC on 'rejoin' call, he asked for SVFR and was told to orbit, I asked for VFR and got straight in, much to his annoyance with ATC as he had no idea why this had happened. This one event started my articles in Flyer that lasted 10 years - I wrote an article on SVFR for any instructors at the Southampton clubs, the SATCO read it, said he wanted it for his trainee controllers but I MUST get it into some aviation magazine as it was the first time he had seen a proper readable explanation.
@AlanM of course Southampton found a fantastic solution to all this ignorance and confusion and orbitting in haze a few years later (they told GA residents to **** ***) - please don't do the same!
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#1823064
Irv Lee wrote:@AlanM of course Southampton found a fantastic solution to all this ignorance and confusion and orbitting in haze a few years later (they told GA residents to **** ***) - please don't do the same!


We wouldn't - we NEED GA in the Channel Islands. Jersey ATC engages with Jersey Aero Club, as does Guernsey ATC with theirs.

It is one of the reasons that we adopted full SERA with no derogations. Rock up - and even if we are in IFR conditions at any airfield, you get cleared to the VRP outside of the ATZ and you can determine your own flight rules. We tell pilots the weather at destination (or any airfield you may transit near) and let them decide. It is not for us to determine that for them - they are far better placed. Same for departures - we have to enforce the rules and only apply until the ATZ boundary. Most depart IFR/SVFR if the weather is marginal and then convert to VFR if they wish, 2nm from the ARP.
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#1823065
johnm wrote:Class E airspace is for IFR and VFR use. IFR aircraft require ATC clearance and compliance with ATC instructions is mandatory for separation purposes. VFR traffic does not require clearance to enter class E airspace but must comply with ATC instructions.


Sorry @johnm but that is INCORRECT. You do NOT need to call ATC in Class E if VFR (yes, you have to follow other rules)

However, it is like Class G - if , for example, you do call the controlling authority and are asked to report flying above xxxx ft 'for coordination' and you agree (to allow me to descend an inbound 1000ft above you) then I think you would be expected to do so unless unable to maintain VMC (or any other safety related reason).

Trust me, I have IFR aircraft (often a B737/A320) arriving into Jersey/Guernsey from the East on G271/2/3. There are a lot of VFR crossers squawking 7000 that often appear in the way, sometimes climbing. You just have to steer around them (Unless you want a TCAS RA and Paperwork :pale: )
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1823091
Sorry @johnm but that is INCORRECT. You do NOT need to call ATC in Class E if VFR (yes, you have to follow other rules)


I was being mischievous because the text I quoted was from NATS, which might just say something about attitudes :-)

As a regular flyer into Alderney for many years, VFR, SVFR and IFR at various times I understand the Jersey zone issues......
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By AlanM
#1823100
johnm wrote:
Sorry @johnm but that is INCORRECT. You do NOT need to call ATC in Class E if VFR (yes, you have to follow other rules)


I was being mischievous because the text I quoted was from NATS, which might just say something about attitudes :-)

As a regular flyer into Alderney for many years, VFR, SVFR and IFR at various times I understand the Jersey zone issues......


Says as much about their lack of knowledge as well.

Sorry that I missed your mischievousness..... :D
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1823112
That's right, I actually went looking for the official documents but saw the NATS comment about being controlled in Class E and I thought to myself .....hmmmmm, cat, pigeons, might be fun and the reaction was actually quite disappointing :lol:
#1823194
Mischievous or not, can we not post content that we know to be incorrect? Some people don't know enough to understand that it's incorrect.

VFR flights do not need to be in receipt of an air traffic service in class E airspace (unless it's also notified as a RMZ) and, even if they are in receipt of an ATS, there is no requirement to follow instructions from ATS because a VFR flight is not in receipt of an ATC service
AlanM, ls8pilot, T6Harvard liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1823234
A good point re accuracy, apologies :oops:

I should have posted it rather differently because the issue of NATS promulgating duff info is one we should worry about, especially when, as was pointed out above, it appears above the official information in a Google search.
WhoWhenWhy?, Nick liked this
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