Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 10
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1822863
Irv Lee wrote:@johnm and as I keep saying, and you keep denying, you are too rich! ;-)



No! I have a pilot's licence and a share in an aeroplane, how would I be rich :lol:
#1822867
Irv Lee wrote:If you mean what happens May 20th, nothing changes for class G, nothing needs to change for class G, it is all about reverting class D cloud rules on cloud separation when flying 3000' or below' !


What's confusing me is this page

Through the Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2021, on 20 May 2021 the UK will implement an amendment to SERA.5001 Table S5-1 that modifies the VMC visibility and distance from cloud minima in airspace Classes D, F and G.  From 20 May 2021, pilots will be deemed to have complied with the requirements of SERA.5001 when operating at or below 3,000 ft AMSL, or 1,000 ft above terrain, whichever is the higher, if they are flying:

Within Class D airspace:
a) During day only;
b) Indicated airspeed of 140 kts or less;
c) Remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight and;
(i) For aircraft other than helicopters, with a flight visibility of at least 5 km;
(ii)For helicopters, with a flight visibility of at least 1,500 m.

Within Class F and G airspace:
a) During day only;
b) Indicated airspeed of 140 kts or less;
c) For all aircraft, with a flight visibility of at least 1,500 m.


But it's something different (i.e. not SERA.5001) which prevents us from being VMC on top?
#1822904
Irv Lee wrote:@JAFO Well there were pilots objecting to the uk reverting to the old rules (which we ARE reverting to, on May 20th). The "newish rules" that we have right now, and exist until May 20th, stop a vfr clearance even with 100 miles visibility in a ctr when there is a completely stable cloud ceiling at 1400'. So if you were heading back to Bournemouth now, ceiling 1400', you need a svfr to enter and fly the circuit meaning all sorts of potential delays and orbits if other traffic are in the ctr, as 3nm separation between everyone in the ctr is needed. When we revert to the old rules from 20th May, no such delays, as no such big separation distances are required, as Vfr will be possible. So I was suggesting that once we revert, those of us happy with the reversion can take a vfr clearance and land with very little problem, whereas, in order to keep their principles, all the pilots who object to reverting should refuse a vfr clearance and as a matter of principle insist on a svfr one (which they could insist on) and thereby feel much better about themselves and their principles when asked to orbit for fifteen minutes.
(I cover svfr in my zoom radio/airspace course)


Or the tower controller is visual with all of the aircraft.......
G-BLEW liked this
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1822920
True but when there were GA schools and residents at Southampton, I used to be in my garden just west of Romsey vrp, and on a hazy day, viz about 6-7 km, and invariably I would spot the odd one circling overhead, having mistakenly thought that they had to ask for svfr in such vis, whilst others before and after were direct to right base vfr - and sometimes I had been the vfr inbound, having to watch out for the guy ahead who had been asked to "orbit outside" as he had asked for svfr without realising the predictable result
AlanM, flybymike liked this
By AlanM
#1822922
@Irv Lee I often wonder where the most confusion lies in VFR/SVFR - Pilots in knowing what to ask for/implications vs ATCOs and What is easier and how to make it all flow.

I think it is a no-score draw.
#1822923
Irv Lee wrote:True but when there were GA schools and residents at Southampton, I used to be in my garden just west of Romsey vrp, and on a hazy day, viz about 6-7 km, and invariably I would spot the odd one circling overhead, having mistakenly thought that they had to ask for svfr in such vis, whilst others before and after were direct to right base vfr - and sometimes I had been the vfr inbound, having to watch out for the guy ahead who had been asked to "orbit outside" as he had asked for svfr without realising the predictable result


I may have said this before.....

Let the pilot declare what clearance they want in the Class D CTR and only when they get to the ATZ/Aerodrome Traffic Circuit (and ATC intervene) do Airfield Weather conditions come in to play.

Maybe the UK could call it something silly like “SERA” and align with the rest of the EU and Channel Islands.

The new (old) rules do not help. The new (old) rules are worse, believe me.

SERA makes the life of an ATCO a doddle. Surely it makes a well educated pilot’s life easier....?
johnm, Bathman, WhoWhenWhy? liked this
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1822941
Irv Lee wrote:True but when there were GA schools and residents at Southampton, I used to be in my garden just west of Romsey vrp, and on a hazy day, viz about 6-7 km, and invariably I would spot the odd one circling overhead, having mistakenly thought that they had to ask for svfr in such vis, whilst others before and after were direct to right base vfr - and sometimes I had been the vfr inbound, having to watch out for the guy ahead who had been asked to "orbit outside" as he had asked for svfr without realising the predictable result

But in those dim and distant days wasn’t a minimum 10k vis required for a SVFR clearance?
(My memory harks back to the old Channel Islands Class A/rule 21 requiring 10k for SVFR entry)
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1822958
The 10K vis was Class A IIRC and was trumped if you had an IMCR when it reduced to something I can't even remember. This was all to get round no VFR in Class A.

Getting rid of Class A CTR was a big bonus from SERA which we look set to keep at least.....
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1822980
ls8pilot wrote:A question... Assuming Brize plans go ahead we will have large areas of Class E (or "E+").

I assume the new Class G definition applies in TMZ/RMZ in Class G, but what is the definition of IMC in Class E?


There is no new class G definition

Class E airspace is for IFR and VFR use. IFR aircraft require ATC clearance and compliance with ATC instructions is mandatory for separation purposes. VFR traffic does not require clearance to enter class E airspace but must comply with ATC instructions.
#1822983
johnm wrote:
ls8pilot wrote:A question... Assuming Brize plans go ahead we will have large areas of Class E (or "E+").

I assume the new Class G definition applies in TMZ/RMZ in Class G, but what is the definition of IMC in Class E?


There is no new class G definition

Class E airspace is for IFR and VFR use. IFR aircraft require ATC clearance and compliance with ATC instructions is mandatory for separation purposes. VFR traffic does not require clearance to enter class E airspace but must comply with ATC instructions.

Indeed, but as I understand it VFR traffic must maintain VMC, so the definition of VMC in Class E does matter ?
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1822984
Indeed, but as I understand it VFR traffic must maintain VMC, so the definition of VMC in Class E does matter ?


Good point and I've assumed that it would be the same in all classes except G.
#1822988
The 10k visibility limit was introduced with Special Rules Areas and Zones , which areas around major regional airports were called before Class D was adopted. There were two rules, "A" and "B".
The "A" rule was just that you had to be in radio contact with ATC. Some SRA s published one or two exemptions for VMC, "1" being gliders and "2" being non radio if they had previous permission to enter.
Rule "B" was that you had to maintain 1000' vertically and 1500 metres horizontally from cloud in a visibility of 10 km unless you held a full IR.
If you had an IMCR or held a CPL you were permitted to operate under a SVFR clearance clear of cloud in a visibility of at least 3 km.
This meant that a basic PPL could not fly in a "B" or a coincident CTR if visibility was less than 10km and thus some SRAs established VFR lanes aligned with line features which allowed a basic PPL to operate SVFR along the lanes in visibilities of at least 3km. The AIP still lists these VFR lanes but they now have no practical significance with a basic PPL being permitted to operate VFR below 140 knots in visibilities down to 5000 metres and SVFR to 1500 metres.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 10