Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1820403
Flying_john wrote:I think the problem is that Funke obtained certification for just Mode S (CS-ETSO-2C112a) they then found that in France the was a problem with Mode S interogations and they had an upgrade to fix a receiver problem which also had to be certified (/ EASA.21O.268 ).

I assume that this is what that Airworthiness Directive from 2008 is about https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Fun ... ansponders
There should be none of these transponders around now below Mod 10.
Flying_john liked this
#1820407
Trig's transponders meet C112d and C166b.
Garmin 2C112b and C166a
Becker 2C112a

Who says C166b is required in Europe?

ETSO-C166b
Subject: Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Services (TIS-B) Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz)
#1820421
I believe when the LAA updated their ADS-B approval process, they based the requirements on EASA CS-STAN. The lowest level of compliance (with a non-certified GPS) is configuration 3.

This is an extract from SC-STAN:
For configuration 3:
The following conditions apply to configuration 3:
— The transponder equipment and its installation are compliant with CS-SC002c or later amendments, or are otherwise approved.
— The ADS-B transmit unit (transponder) is approved in accordance with ETSO-C166b, or later revisions, or the equivalent.
— The GNSS receiver is not approved or its installation is not certified. However, the compatibility of the combination of the transponder and the GNSS receiver is explicitly stated by the manufacturer of the transponder.
— The quality indicators are configured according to the manufacturer instructions to report the lowest quality (e.g. SIL = 0 and SDA = 0, NACp = 0).
— The installation instructions from the equipment manufacturer have to be followed.


When the CAA conducted a trial of non-certified ADS-B OUT several years ago in which about 12 LAA aircraft took part, the currently required ETSO wasn't available but they approved the aircraft to operate with earlier versions of C166 transponders. The problem with the Funke is that it has no ADS-B certification all all. The C112 approvals relate just to the Mode S functions.

In LAA TL3.03, the only requirement for a TSO C166b transponder is in Appendix 3 - ADS-B with SIL/SDA greater than one.

Here's the original UK trial report:

https://nats.aero/blog/wp-content/uploa ... report.pdf
#1820423
wigglyamp wrote: The problem with the Funke is that it has no ADS-B certification all all. The C112 approvals relate just to the Mode S functions.


Exactly - that hits the nail on the head - but why do German Trading standards still allow them to sell a non - aproved ADSB device, sucking in anyone who does not know the chapter and verse of the certification system.

ALL Funke owners should be emailing Funke to ask them what they propose - or you want your money back !!

Service@funkeavionics.de
#1820447
I am a little confused. I thought one of the advantages of LAA was you didnt have to use certified kit? And I was also of the impression that uncertified kit was proven in trials to be just as good for ADSB-out as certified EASA stuff, the only difference being the SIL thingy you had to output?

(Said as an interested bystander, I dont own an aeroplane)
#1820449
ak7274 wrote:As for the OP's complaint, did he do due diligence before going ahead with his mod?

I would not be surprised if he did, within acceptable reason. The available formal funke functional information is (at best) opaque. :evil:

Additionally it would not surprise me to learn that the LAA Engineering rejection was also due to the specific combination not actually working, as well as it not meeting a particular official Standard, due to vagaries of that funke product.
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#1820450
skydriller wrote:And I was also of the impression that uncertified kit was proven in trials to be just as good for ADSB-out as certified EASA stuff


I think that was an uncertified GPS source rather than an uncertified transponder.

Funke have been pretty unhelpful in this whole ADS-B issue from what I've read. People have been charged £400 for an "upgrade" (sometimes just a firmware upgrade) only to find that it's still not compliant. (or still doesn't work properly)
Dave W, Smaragd, Flying_john liked this
#1820459
wigglyamp wrote:In LAA TL3.03, the only requirement for a TSO C166b transponder is in Appendix 3 - ADS-B with SIL/SDA greater than one


and Appendix 2 states
The following combinations of equipment are acceptable to LAA for installation in conjunction with form LAA/MOD17 for the provision of ADS-B Out transmissions that use SIL/SDA greater than one.

The list does not include Funke transpoders, for obvious reasons, but this does not mean they cannot be approved with SIL=0 and SDA=0

Somebody at the LAA has misinterpreted their own rules. If that is not the case, what form do I submit to apply for cancellation of the approval of my TRT800/Garmin Aera installation? :)
#1820483
Even with a Permit type aircraft , the rules are that you can't just fit radio transmitters that don't meet the approval standard.

Just say a manufacturer decided it would sell a transponder that wasnt approved for ADSB and the device transmitted (squittered) for 5 seconds in every ten, blocking the particular frequency for 50% of the time. We are not just talking of a problem for GA but for commercial traffic too, the SIL value makes no difference, you still block the frequency.

Its really up to Funke now to explain to the satisfaction of the regulators why they think they have a product that is allowed to be used by meeting some other standard perhaps.

I wonder how users of Funke ADSB Ext Squit transponders get on using them in Germany - even with a certified GPS the transponder would need to conform with the rules !
#1820511
We fitted this Funke TRT800A in 2015, choice was made based on future use of ES facility (as marketed). Would have preferred a Trig, but they didn't do the wide unit at the time and we needed to slot in a size identical replacement for our old transponder which died. The unit was fitted by a professional avionics engineer and we did research suitability, but as laymen without PHD knowledge of all the CAA/EASA approvals, you have to rely on advice given and the integrity of known manufacturers who say their products comply with various regs etc.. If as (now) seems to be the case, the Funke does not comply with relevant approvals, how is it that they have been permitted by the regulators (EASA?) to carry on marketing their products with spurious and inaccurate claims?
Dave W, ak7274 liked this
#1820519
We fitted our TRT800 (factory reworked TRT600) in 2011, same "ADS-B-ready" claim. Started trying to get a sensible answer from Funke in 2015 when use of non-certified GPS in permit aircraft came along. Got numerous conflicting answers (pay for mod, no need to do anything, pay for mod, can't be modified). Fortunately didn't trust them enough at any point to send the unit back for upgrade. We already had ADS-B in with PilotAware; now we have ADS-B out with purchase of an SE2 with DfT discount at a lower cost than any upgrade from Funke.
Stu B, cirrostratus liked this